RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,914
Posts: 5,388,323
Members: 24,718
Currently online: 493
Newest member: Tribblemaker

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing November Trek Comic
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Pegg/Wright Trilogy In The Works
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Star Trek: The Compendium Rebate Details
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Gold Key Archives Volume 2
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Takei Documentary Wins Award
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Cumberbatch To Voice Khan
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Shaun And Ed On Phineas and Ferb
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

New Ships Coming From Official Starships Collection
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

Trek Stars Take On Ice Bucket Challenge
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

Retro Review: Profit and Lace
By: Michelle on Aug 16


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 19 2013, 12:59 PM   #1
Noddy
Captain
 
The Undiscovered Country and Yesterday's Enterprise

Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country ends with the Federation and the Klingons signing the Khitomer Accords, thus leading into a new era of peace and cooperation between the two states. But TNG "Yesterday's Enterprise" earlier established that only 20+ years before the TNG era, relations between the Federation and the Empire were still pretty rocky and tenuous, with ties only really strengthening due to the sacrifice of the Enterprise-C in defending the Klingon colony from Romulan aggression. So how did they get from A to B, so to speak?
Noddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 02:54 PM   #2
Bry_Sinclair
Commodore
 
Bry_Sinclair's Avatar
 
Location: Along the border of Talarian space
Re: The Undiscovered Country and Yesterday's Enterprise

A treaty doesn't automatically reverse decades of hostility and distrust. We have little information of what went on between TUC and YE, shifts in the internal politics of the Empire or Federation could have caused strains in their relationship.

The sacrifice of the E-C (a famous name to the Klingons as well) would show the Empire just how dedicated the UFP was to the alliance, that it wasn't just some kind of lip service as a means to keep the peace.
__________________
Avatar: Captain Susanna Leijten, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron
Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)
Bry_Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 03:06 PM   #3
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: The Undiscovered Country and Yesterday's Enterprise

Star Trek VI ignored "Yesterday's Enterprise". Voyager's "Flashback" later tried to smooth things over by having Tuvok the events of STVI the "first Klingon/Federation peace treaty"

Remember, the STVI writers originally planned to end the movie with a scene where Kirk and crew "hand over the keys" to the crew of The Next Generation, oblivious to the fact that they're different Enterprises in different eras.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 03:09 PM   #4
Noddy
Captain
 
Re: The Undiscovered Country and Yesterday's Enterprise

So what could have caused the first treaty to break down?
Noddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 06:17 PM   #5
Ketrick
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Maryland
Re: The Undiscovered Country and Yesterday's Enterprise

Noddy wrote: View Post
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country ends with the Federation and the Klingons signing the Khitomer Accords, thus leading into a new era of peace and cooperation between the two states. But TNG "Yesterday's Enterprise" earlier established that only 20+ years before the TNG era, relations between the Federation and the Empire were still pretty rocky and tenuous, with ties only really strengthening due to the sacrifice of the Enterprise-C in defending the Klingon colony from Romulan aggression. So how did they get from A to B, so to speak?
Actually, Star Trek VI doesn't show the signing of the accords. It does show the Khitomer Peace Conference, however.

As far as how they got from A to B, Bry_Sinclair is right. I would also point out that Star Trek VI itself suggests that the road to true peace will be a rocky one in that the conspiracy was so wide-reaching that it had members from Starfleet, the Klingons, and the Romulans. This suggests that there was a significant minority (possibly even a majority) against peace. The unveiling of the conspiracy would only calm things for a while and silence detractors temporarily. There would almost certainly still be people in high positions on both sides just waiting for opportunities to weaken or end the peace not to mention the Romulans who would do their best to wreck the peace as well.

Last edited by Ketrick; September 19 2013 at 09:13 PM.
Ketrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 06:26 PM   #6
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: The Undiscovered Country and Yesterday's Enterprise

Noddy wrote: View Post
So what could have caused the first treaty to break down?
Look at our own history. Treaties break down all the time for all kinds of reasons. Especially when you have a treaty between two powers that don't trust each other at all. On top of that, more so when one of the signatories is a race of people who love fighting for it's own sake.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 06:28 PM   #7
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: The Undiscovered Country and Yesterday's Enterprise

Noddy wrote: View Post
So what could have caused the first treaty to break down?
I'm not sure it even broke down. I'm sure nobody thought that the Khitomer Accord was going to instantaneously create a new era of perfect peace and cooperation, in which the Federation and the Empire always get along, but only that it marked the first step in a long, rocky journey to toward better relations between two long-time adversaries. There were bound to be plenty of bumps and setbacks along the way.

I mean, look at the USA and Russia. The Cold War ended roughly two decades ago, but it's not as though America and Russian are in perfect harmony these days!
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 20 2013, 09:08 AM   #8
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: The Undiscovered Country and Yesterday's Enterprise

It's entirely possible that the Klingons saw the Khitomer accords as a way to buy themselves some time to get into a more tactically advantageous position against the Federation.

But as the Federation made further efforts, and particular the loss of the E-C, the Klingons started to see the Federation as an honourable ally.
Tiberius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 20 2013, 08:01 PM   #9
TheRoyalFamily
Commodore
 
TheRoyalFamily's Avatar
 
Re: The Undiscovered Country and Yesterday's Enterprise

A peace treaty isn't a treaty of friendship or alliance. It just means there isn't a state of war between the groups anymore. The Organian treaty seems to have merely been a cease-fire - the war technically went on, with any contact assumed to be likely hostile. Even as the Ent-A was on a diplomatic mission, specifically meeting a specific ship at a specific time to specifically pick up the Klingon Chancellor specifically for a peaceful, diplomatic mission (specifically), there was a good bit of tension at first.

Knowing the Klingons, as soon as they got their own house in order, they would go back to their old ways. It seems the YE events were the normal order of things - eventually, the Klingons would deal with Praxis, build up their military again, and eventually clash with the Federation, because that's what Klingons do. I've never really thought about it before, but it's possible the Galaxy-class was designed so powerfully with full expectation of fighting the Klingons - that's why it's mostly the same in YE as it is in the normal show. But, the sacrifice of the Ent-C was so significant that it caused the Klingons to actually be impressed with Starfleet, and so the alliance was formed (as the Klingons will apparently be buddies with any honorable warriors, as long as they aren't actively fighting, which would explain the Klink-Rommie TOS alliance and subsequent falling apart); which seems to be pretty new in TNG, so it still took a while to get to that point. Without the anti-Klingon mission, the Galaxy could be repurposed into a more exploratory, diplomatic mission.

Also, they seem to think of treaties as mere suggestions, or relationships, not contracts. As soon as the Chancellor feels like the Empire has been slighted (dishonored), he can call off the treaty with a word - and then, once he's feeling better about the opponent, he will just state the treaty is back in force! (The diplomats and lawyers must really hate dealing with Klingons.) Even in TNG the Klingons in general were seen as a potential threat - not necessarily the whole Empire, but any BoP could have a captain that would do something stupid for glory and honor - and the Empire would disavow any responsibility.
__________________
You perceive wrongly. I feel unimaginable happiness wasting time talking with women. I'm that type of human.
TheRoyalFamily is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 20 2013, 10:45 PM   #10
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: The Undiscovered Country and Yesterday's Enterprise

'Yesterday's enterprise' made clear enough what happened between Khitomer and Narendra III:
Khitomer turned a cold war into a frozen war.
The situation deteriorated without enterprise c's sacrifice for the klingons.
Open war broke out.
The klingons bitch-slapped the federation.
Details beyond these are nowhere established.


A probable scenario:
A large part of the fleet was mothballed after TUC (as per canon TUC, this was implied to be a serious possibility - and not contradicted).
The klingons recover from Praxis.

Starfleet training is reorganised to limit military training, to instill in starfleet personnel a distaste toward honing one's military skills.
This is made obvious in Picard, Riker's (leaders of THE top starfleet crew) behaviour from 'Peak performance'. See also Picard, Riker's airhead combat performance in episodes like 'Rascals' and others, proving they cannot use effectively the combat capabilities of their ship.

No Narendra III. The situation between the klingons and the federation deteriorates.

As per 'Yesterday's enterprise', the klingons killed 40 billion. You can't do that by killing merely military personnel.
Most likely, the klingons massed their forces for a surprise attack. Starfleet intelligence, as redundantly shown in canon, was/is utterly incompetent and failed to discover this.
The klingons launched their attack, destroying many federation worlds with populations numbering in the billions, eliminating large parts of the federation infrastructure.
By the time starfleet manages to mass its dispersed fleet to respond/starfleet officers manage to come up with behaviour distinguishable from utter incompetence, the klingons have a substantial advantage.

The federation is incapable of recovering during the war. Perhaps because many worlds seceded from the federation, not wanting to be the next world the klingons burn to a crisp. This is even more probable when one considers how different the cultures of the federation member worlds are.
__________________
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 21 2013, 01:49 AM   #11
WarpFactorZ
Captain
 
Re: The Undiscovered Country and Yesterday's Enterprise

R. Star wrote: View Post
Noddy wrote: View Post
So what could have caused the first treaty to break down?
Look at our own history. Treaties break down all the time for all kinds of reasons. Especially when you have a treaty between two powers that don't trust each other at all. On top of that, more so when one of the signatories is a race of people who love fighting for it's own sake.
Indeed. Treaties were signed with Germany in 1918, so why did they start a war 20 years later?
WarpFactorZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 21 2013, 05:08 PM   #12
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: The Undiscovered Country and Yesterday's Enterprise

Check out the Treaty of Versailles and try to imagine yourself being a German patriot or any patriot. It was extremely humiliating, considered outrageously unfair by the German population and when Hitler came to power he reversed the effects of the treaty step by step and - like Khan - gave Germany order. Unfortunately he didn't stop there but was seeking revenge.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 21 2013, 06:14 PM   #13
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: The Undiscovered Country and Yesterday's Enterprise

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Check out the Treaty of Versailles and try to imagine yourself being a German patriot or any patriot. It was extremely humiliating, considered outrageously unfair by the German population and when Hitler came to power he reversed the effects of the treaty step by step and - like Khan - gave Germany order. Unfortunately he didn't stop there but was seeking revenge.

Bob
A, yes, Hitler the hero doing the right thing for the german people.
Care to mention exactly what was considered 'outrageously unfair' in the Treaty of Versailles? As opposed to other treaties signed throughout history.
Or tell how exactly were Hitler's actions justified - at any time? When was that period of Hitler the hero?
__________________
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 21 2013, 07:45 PM   #14
Mario de Monti
Captain
 
Mario de Monti's Avatar
 
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Re: The Undiscovered Country and Yesterday's Enterprise

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Care to mention exactly what was considered 'outrageously unfair' in the Treaty of Versailles? As opposed to other treaties signed throughout history.
So just because this kind of thing has been done before (and after) means, it can´t be described as ´outrageusly unfair´? How about, that significant parts of Germany, that had been part of it for almost 50 years, were annexed by neighboring countries? Or the fact, that the final loans made in the 1920s for paying reparations could only be repaid by Germany as recently as 2010??
BTW, a treaty is by definition a "means of willing parties assuming obligations among themselves, and a party to either that fails to live up to their obligations can be held liable under international law." (Wikipedia)
When you dictate conditions to a defeated country, that has no other choice but to accept the terms, it can hardly be called a "treaty".

I know that´s not to the point of this thread, but I wanted to comment anyway.

Mario
__________________
"Do you give me attitude, Spock?" - "I´m expressing multiple attitudes simultaneously, Sir. To which are you referring?"
Mario de Monti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 21 2013, 08:23 PM   #15
MikeS
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Liverpool, UK
Re: The Undiscovered Country and Yesterday's Enterprise

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
How about, that significant parts of Germany, that had been part of it for almost 50 years, were annexed by neighboring countries? Or the fact, that the final loans made in the 1920s for paying reparations could only be repaid by Germany as recently as 2010??
50 years? Wow! Where had those parts of Germany been part of before that? I'm pretty sure Poland had a 500 year history prior to its annexation by Prussians (and others) in the 1800's.

As for the financial aspect. The UK helped to rid Europe of Nazism, it was the last nation standing against the tide until Roosevelt could wake America up to the threat. Our reward? We too only finished paying off our war debt around 2010. I suppose we could whine that it was "unfair" because we were "the good guys"! But we just got on with it.

The fact that Versailles was too harsh and lead to the rise of Hitler and WWII is well documented, but to whine that it was "unfair" and argue that Hitler was some kind of hero?! I just hope that has been lost in translation.

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
BTW, a treaty is by definition a "means of willing parties assuming obligations among themselves, and a party to either that fails to live up to their obligations can be held liable under international law." (Wikipedia)
When you dictate conditions to a defeated country, that has no other choice but to accept the terms, it can hardly be called a "treaty".
I know alot of Southern Europeans that feel that way about the EEC.

I know that none of this is the point of this thread, but I wanted to comment anyway.
__________________
One day soon, man is going to be able to harness incredible energies, energies that could ultimately hurl us to other worlds in... some sort of spaceship.
MikeS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:33 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.