RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,168
Posts: 5,344,864
Members: 24,601
Currently online: 522
Newest member: Capt_n_Admiral

TrekToday headlines

Klingon Beer Arrives In The US
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Star Trek: Prelude To Axanar
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Abrams Announces Star Wars: Force For Change Sweepstakes
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

New Funko Trek Figure
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

Saldana As A Role Model
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

San Diego Comic-Con Trek Fan Guide
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

Cumberbatch As Turing
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

Retro Review: In the Pale Moonlight
By: Michelle on Jul 19

Trek Beach Towel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 18

Two New Starships Collection Releases
By: T'Bonz on Jul 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 18 2013, 10:22 PM   #136
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Tennessee
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

OpenMaw wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
So, yeah, he changed his mind because he realized he could grab Genesis and no one would know he had it.
Assumption.
Not an assumption at all. That's what happens, and that's why it happens. Khan was jamming long range communications. Enterprise, and the science team, had no way to communicate with Starfleet. Nobody would know who had taken Genesis once Khan had destroyed Enterprise. No one.
Assumption and a bad one too:

- Starfleet knows there's an issue at Regula 1. An outpost housing high value research

Now add to that:

- Reliant goes off the grid
- Enterprise goes off the grid
- Regula is off the grid.

Starfleet (unless they're completely brain dead) is going to send another ship to see what happened. Kirk still has a full rig of landing party gear. So if a ship did pass by, and he's sending out an SOS that'd be picked up. Plus we don't know what other sort of gear is stored in the Geneis tunnels.

Plus: as a weapon, Genesis is worthless to Khan. He pops off on torpedo...then what? He pretty much gets his ass handed to him. Even the threat is worthless.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
Good men don't need rules, The Doctor (A Good Man Goes To War)
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 12:19 AM   #137
WarpFactorZ
Captain
 
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Plus: as a weapon, Genesis is worthless to Khan. He pops off on torpedo...then what? He pretty much gets his ass handed to him. Even the threat is worthless.
Khan had a starship as well which, at the time, was basically in top-notch condition. All he'd need to do is pop into orbit above Earth (we know they have no defenses...), deliver the Genesis device, and warp out before anyone is the wiser.

It's not a useless weapon at all if it inflicts mass chaos and terror, even as a once-off. Need I cite examples from Earth's (recent) history?
WarpFactorZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 12:26 AM   #138
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Plus: as a weapon, Genesis is worthless to Khan. He pops off on torpedo...then what? He pretty much gets his ass handed to him. Even the threat is worthless.
Khan had a starship as well which, at the time, was basically in top-notch condition. All he'd need to do is pop into orbit above Earth (we know they have no defenses...), deliver the Genesis device, and warp out before anyone is the wiser.

It's not a useless weapon at all if it inflicts mass chaos and terror, even as a once-off. Need I cite examples from Earth's (recent) history?
It works better as a threat than an actual weapon.

Because once you use it, every starship in the Federation is going to be on the hunt for you and you're then at a distinct disadvantage.
__________________
"I had no idea you were so... formidable. " - Anan 7 to James T. Kirk, A Taste of Armageddon
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 12:36 AM   #139
WarpFactorZ
Captain
 
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

BillJ wrote: View Post
It works better as a threat than an actual weapon.

Because once you use it, every starship in the Federation is going to be on the hunt for you and you're then at a distinct disadvantage.
Presumably Khan saw the potential to build an arsenal of Genesis devices, just as did the Klingons. He didn't just want the device, he wanted the specs too. That clearly indicates his intentions.

It's probably the case that he got the files, but not the hardware. Ransacking Regula I was likely to find the torpedo, not to find files on a computer.

By stealing the torpedo, he was either planning on reverse-engineering it, or he was going to use it. Either way, the Reliant would be hunted down, so your last paragraph holds true regardless of what happened with Genesis.
WarpFactorZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 12:50 AM   #140
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Tennessee
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
It works better as a threat than an actual weapon.

Because once you use it, every starship in the Federation is going to be on the hunt for you and you're then at a distinct disadvantage.
Presumably Khan saw the potential to build an arsenal of Genesis devices, just as did the Klingons. He didn't just want the device, he wanted the specs too. That clearly indicates his intentions.

It's probably the case that he got the files, but not the hardware. Ransacking Regula I was likely to find the torpedo, not to find files on a computer.

By stealing the torpedo, he was either planning on reverse-engineering it, or he was going to use it. Either way, the Reliant would be hunted down, so your last paragraph holds true regardless of what happened with Genesis.
Given that the secret of Genesis is (implied in STIII) not to be part of the official record, he's still got a one off weapon.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
Good men don't need rules, The Doctor (A Good Man Goes To War)
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 01:05 AM   #141
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post

Given that the secret of Genesis is (implied in STIII) not to be part of the official record, he's still got a one off weapon.
Plus, we simply just don't know how readily available protomatter is?
__________________
"I had no idea you were so... formidable. " - Anan 7 to James T. Kirk, A Taste of Armageddon
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 02:25 AM   #142
WarpFactorZ
Captain
 
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Given that the secret of Genesis is (implied in STIII) not to be part of the official record, he's still got a one off weapon.
Nonsense. Khan took the data from Regula One's computers. Also, being not part of the official record doesn't mean the files don't exist.
WarpFactorZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 02:30 AM   #143
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Tennessee
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Given that the secret of Genesis is (implied in STIII) not to be part of the official record, he's still got a one off weapon.
Nonsense. Khan took the data from Regula One's computers. Also, being not part of the official record doesn't mean the files don't exist.
Do we know he stripped the computers? All he has is the control module and the torpedo. In fact we know he didn't get the data, the databanks were wiped.

Can't find a clip online so MA, will have to do.

Enteprise crew find that the stations records of the Genesis Device have been erased by the Regula staff.
The movie:
TERRELL: He couldn't find them. Even the data banks were empty.
KIRK: Erased?

TERRELL: He tortured those people. But none of those people would tell him anything. He went wild. He slit their throats. He wanted to tear the place apart, but he was late. He had to get back to Reliant in time to blow you to bits.
And at least one version of the STIII script makes it clear David hid it:

SAAVIK
DAVID
(a pause)
I used protomatter in the Genesis
matrix.

SAAVIK
Protomatter. An unstable
substance which every ethical
scientist in the galaxy has
denounced as dangerously
unpredictable.

DAVID
(defensive)
It was the only way to solve
certain problems --

SAAVIK
Did your collaborator know?

DAVID
My mother knew nothing about it.
That's why I asked her to leave
Genesis in my hands.


SAAVIK
So, like your father, you changed
the rules...
Khan had a one off WMD and a small starship. He wasn't some major threat. Worse he could do is nuke Earth or some other planet and end up dead real quick afterwards--if he got close enough to do it.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
Good men don't need rules, The Doctor (A Good Man Goes To War)

Last edited by SeerSGB; September 19 2013 at 02:43 AM.
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 03:22 AM   #144
OpenMaw
Commander
 
OpenMaw's Avatar
 
Location: Everett, Washington
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post

Khan had a one off WMD and a small starship. He wasn't some major threat. Worse he could do is nuke Earth or some other planet and end up dead real quick afterwards--if he got close enough to do it.
Yeah, billions of lives lost is not a threat at all... Come on, man! A planet dying is not something one should shrug their shoulders at!


Besides, to back up your previous point. We already know Khan didn't get the data from his engagement with Kirk. He wanted all "data and material" as far as Genesis was concerned. Which means at no point did he have anything but Genesis itself in his hands. Still, I think with time his people could have figured the weapon out in detail and made more.
__________________
"Paradise protests too much." SFDebris
OpenMaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 03:38 AM   #145
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Tennessee
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

OpenMaw wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post

Khan had a one off WMD and a small starship. He wasn't some major threat. Worse he could do is nuke Earth or some other planet and end up dead real quick afterwards--if he got close enough to do it.
Yeah, billions of lives lost is not a threat at all... Come on, man! A planet dying is not something one should shrug their shoulders at!


Besides, to back up your previous point. We already know Khan didn't get the data from his engagement with Kirk. He wanted all "data and material" as far as Genesis was concerned. Which means at no point did he have anything but Genesis itself in his hands. Still, I think with time his people could have figured the weapon out in detail and made more.
1) Sorry but in an interstellar community, one planet is no big deal. Would be horrible? Of course, but it's a self limiting threat. But it isn't a big deal in terms of the galactic powers. Even the destruction of Earth in Enterprise is treated as another bad day and they just pack up and head for a new planet.

2) Remember, only David had the true secret of Genesis. Khan and his people start fumbling around they would most likely blow them selves to hell and back. Remember Protomatter isn't safe by ANYONE's standard. The fact it didn't cook off in the lab is probably a small miracle.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
Good men don't need rules, The Doctor (A Good Man Goes To War)
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 08:21 PM   #146
WarpFactorZ
Captain
 
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
1) Sorry but in an interstellar community, one planet is no big deal. Would be horrible? Of course, but it's a self limiting threat. But it isn't a big deal in terms of the galactic powers. Even the destruction of Earth in Enterprise is treated as another bad day and they just pack up and head for a new planet.
That's an extremely perplexing attitude. But anyway:

1. Earth is the capital of said interstellar community, so its destruction would have vast repercussions.

2. Khan had to know things could only end one way. It was just a question of how much he wanted to take with him on the way down. Same applied to STiD. The Vengeance might have been powerful, but wouldn't stand up to an onslaught from the fleet.
WarpFactorZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 08:32 PM   #147
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Tennessee
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
1) Sorry but in an interstellar community, one planet is no big deal. Would be horrible? Of course, but it's a self limiting threat. But it isn't a big deal in terms of the galactic powers. Even the destruction of Earth in Enterprise is treated as another bad day and they just pack up and head for a new planet.
That's an extremely perplexing attitude. But anyway:

1. Earth is the capital of said interstellar community, so its destruction would have vast repercussions.

2. Khan had to know things could only end one way. It was just a question of how much he wanted to take with him on the way down. Same applied to STiD. The Vengeance might have been powerful, but wouldn't stand up to an onslaught from the fleet.
1) Earth might be the Capital, but taking it out isn't going to destroy the Federation or even humanity for that matter. Earth can be replaced. Other than causing a temporary disruption in leadership, most planets wouldn't even notice. The only real issue would be the Federation going to war with whomever nuked the planet. If it was Khan he's dead before he leaves the sector, so move on to the business to hand of transferring power.

2) Bingo, for all his posturing, Khan--either version--is very short sighted.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
Good men don't need rules, The Doctor (A Good Man Goes To War)
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 08:52 PM   #148
CorporalClegg
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalClegg's Avatar
 
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
2) Bingo, for all his posturing, Khan--either version--is very short sighted.
Wasn't that my point to begin with?
__________________
Is this where we come in?
CorporalClegg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 08:58 PM   #149
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Tennessee
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
2) Bingo, for all his posturing, Khan--either version--is very short sighted.
Wasn't that my point to begin with?
If I missed or glossed over your point, my apologies. But it's a very obvious character flaw in both version of the character, I don't see how it gets missed? Khan is not really the uber-threat fandom makes him out to be. Bad ass? Yes. Long term threat? Nah.

However, I will say with Vengeance he has more potential for damage on multiple targets: Warp in *boom* warp out, warp in *boom* warp out.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
Good men don't need rules, The Doctor (A Good Man Goes To War)
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 20 2013, 10:17 AM   #150
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Given that the secret of Genesis is (implied in STIII) not to be part of the official record, he's still got a one off weapon.
Nonsense. Khan took the data from Regula One's computers. Also, being not part of the official record doesn't mean the files don't exist.
Assuming he got what he wanted, I'm not sure that he can make more of those things. I mean, he's not exactly a 23rd century physicist.
__________________
And that's my opinion.

The Onmyouza Theatre: an unofficial international fanclub dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:46 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.