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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old September 16 2013, 02:17 AM   #16
DWF
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Shinzon is a doppelganger and he's dying, he sees himself asa second rate copy of Picard and I think there's some regret about the direction of his life. Destroying Picard, earth and Federation somehow would give his life some validation.
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Old September 16 2013, 04:30 AM   #17
billcosby
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Shinzon's motives as executed through his timing could also be the subject of discussion. How much time elapses during the events of Nemesis? One week, tops? Probably a few days.
Dear Shinzon: Do you think your master plan might have worked better if you'd had a bit longer than a few days to stay alive long enough to see it through? Come on, dude. Or did he not know about his condition during the Dominion War?

Jesus. I can imagine Picard and crew laughing and in hysterics after this final mission together, that their final combatant was so incompetent... all together busting a gut on the bridge or in ten forward. But, no they decided to end it with senseless death and leave it a bummer of an ender.

DWF wrote: View Post
Shinzon is a ... second rate copy of Picard
I like the way you phrased that. And I agree. Although maybe third or fouth rate.
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Old September 16 2013, 12:17 PM   #18
SantaSpock
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Re: Shinzon's motives

I think Shinzon should have been Picard's son.

Then this movie would have been a validation of what Picard did and said in GEN and a reason for Picard to try to save him. By making it his son its no less a reflection on Picard. But he has more motive to save a son than an evil clone.

I would have cut Shinzon's creepiness. I just don't think he needed to be totally evil. He could have just captured Picard to take non-death threatening blood transfusions from him. Maybe it would have been better for him to try to destroy Romulus and maybe Picard would seem nobler if he was trying to save the billions on a planet he doesn't really like. Maybe he would sacrifice his only son (and Data to do it).
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Old September 16 2013, 02:25 PM   #19
Sran
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Re: Shinzon's motives

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
What proof do you have that the Starfleet and the other Federation worlds could repel an attack from the RSE?
They wouldn't need to repel the attack. They'd need only to survive. And what proof do you have that destroying Earth would mean the end of the Federation? You're the one who made the original assertion. The burden of proof is yours. Not mine.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
English is not my first language. I know I have bad grammar and I struggle to improve. I don't care what you have told me in the past.
Well, I'm going to keep calling you out every time you butcher the English language. Get used to it.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
Please produce evidence to the contrary then.
Where is your evidence that this would happen in the first place? I'll provide my evidence as soon as you can produce your own. As I said above, you're the one who made the original assertion. It's on you to prove your point first. Not that I'd expect you to understand that.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
Actually John Logan was the writer of NEM and those other films. Stuart Baird was the director of Nemesis. Check IMDB to confirm.
You're correct. Logan was the writer of Nemesis. But my original point stands: how does his having written other successful films mean he's above criticism for writing a poor film?

AllStarEntprise wrote:
Write to John Logan, Rick Berman and or Brent Spiner and ask them why. I did not write or cowrite the screenplay for the film. I don't have the answers you seek.
A completely idiotic statement. You claimed that Shinzon's hatred of Romulans took a back seat to his feelings about Picard after he became Praetor without providing any proof of this. That's why I asked those questions. If you aren't prepared to respond to questions regarding your points, you shouldn't make statements like that.

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Old September 16 2013, 03:41 PM   #20
HaventGotALife
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Re: Shinzon's motives

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I think Shinzon should have been Picard's son.

Then this movie would have been a validation of what Picard did and said in GEN and a reason for Picard to try to save him. By making it his son its no less a reflection on Picard. But he has more motive to save a son than an evil clone.

I would have cut Shinzon's creepiness. I just don't think he needed to be totally evil. He could have just captured Picard to take non-death threatening blood transfusions from him. Maybe it would have been better for him to try to destroy Romulus and maybe Picard would seem nobler if he was trying to save the billions on a planet he doesn't really like. Maybe he would sacrifice his only son (and Data to do it).
I disagree. I think it works as a clone. Picard has a bit of hubris in this movie--that Jean-Luc Picard would never do the things Shinzon of Remus has done. And, because he's a good man at heart, Picard can appeal to his higher sense of self to turn him into a good man. That is interesting for Picard's motivations as well as Shinzon's. It's more personal than when he tries to save other life forms. This is about proving that Jean-Luc Picard is a good man.

Making him a son makes it less important because he hasn't been in the child's life. It means that his hand-wringing at the beginning of the movie about how everyone is leaving him and he made decisions that left him without a family, are destroyed. He's inherently a bad father, and therefore, directly responsible for Shinzon's actions. That's a completely different movie that paints Picard in a very bad light.

Besides, how would you get DNA from Picard? Did a Romulan, um...well, you see my point. Did he know about this son? Why would the Romulans throw that son away when we've had Tasha Yar's daughter rise through the ranks? What is the motivation of the Romulans to get a son of Picard?

I agree with some of the points about the portrayal of Shinzon. Could he have just as easily turned the Scimitar on Romulus? Absolutely. That is a thought that I have had a million times.

However, he wouldn't be Praetor too long without the support of the Romulan fleet, as he eventually finds out when the Romulans abandon him. I think, like with most Star Trek movies, there is room for improvement. I think it would be a better movie if the Scimitar went up against 3 or 4 squadrons of Romulan ships instead of 1 The thing is the freaking Death Star. It could handle multiple attackers and still survive.

It's not perfect, but I see what they are doing. I wish people would stop looking for things that are wrong with it, and put their biases aside, and try and see what the movie is trying to do. The dialogue is b-rate and blunt, the acting performances are over-the-top, especially Patrick Stewart, (with too many catch-phrases) and it's needlessly plotting in terms of pace. But those don't speak to the question that was originally asked. "Could Shinzon's motives been clearer and would that make a better movie?"

I think it would've tied the movie nicely together if they had a flashback to Picard's weakest moment, most like Shinzon, with Tom Hardy playing Picard, so when the audience sees Shinzon, they know who they are seeing.
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Old September 16 2013, 03:55 PM   #21
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Re: Shinzon's motives

The Overlord wrote: View Post
But again why didn't Shinzon plan on destroying Romulus instead of Earth, if the Romulans were the ones responsible for his misfortune?
Because he wants to defeat Earth easily, and show the Romulan people that he could achieve what the Romulans' leaders had always failed to do - over centuries: destroy Earth.
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Old September 16 2013, 07:15 PM   #22
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Sran wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote:
English is not my first language. I know I have bad grammar and I struggle to improve. I don't care what you have told me in the past.
Well, I'm going to keep calling you out every time you butcher the English language. Get used to it.
You are not the English Police. Don't do this.
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Old September 16 2013, 07:43 PM   #23
Khan444
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Shinzon's motives never made ANY sense. Why does he want to destroy Earth exactly? EVERYTHING that's revealed about him makes it much more likely that he'd want to destroy Romulus. The Romulans created him, the Romulans abandoned him and sent him to die a slow and painful death in the mines, the Romulans abuse, oppress, and mistreat his Reman "brothers." If the plot made ANY sense, then he should be attacking Romulus, not Earth. The only thing that Picard ever did to Shinzon was to exist, and without Picard, Shinzon wouldn't exist. Picard wasn't even aware of Shinzon's existence or who he was until Shinzon TOLD HIM. It's like the screenwriters didn't bother to apply ANY kind of logic to their characters or plot, how did the studio allow this script to be filmed, I'll never understand that. Still, Nemesis was NOWHERE near as infuriating as Insurrection, I HATE that movie.
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Old September 16 2013, 09:49 PM   #24
billcosby
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Oh, I like the movie. A fellow long time Trek nerd friend and I rewatched it this summer and I have to admit, it was far more entertaining to me than ever. Lots of stupid moments, sure. Still, there was enough fun and entertainment in this flick to make it worth 2 hours... that still doesn't make Shinzon's motives any clearer. Perhaps he should have spent more time on his efficient revenge fantasy and less on his fashion: I don't think the navy and purple Reman shoulder pads helped. We were laughing at him. I'll bet Q was even laughing at him.

Some of the best questions about his motives were never answered. It would have been interesting to see Shinzon attack Picard, but then have Picard and Shinzon work together to find out how/why he was created and THEN have him turn on Picard. You know, because he's a villain and all. Why not use Picard for that?

Shinzon's page at Memory Alpha is really interesting. This is what I found intriguing:
"In his foreword to J.M. Dillard's novelization of the film, screenwriter John Logan says that he based the name "Shinzon", as well as all the other Reman and Romulan names in the story on ancient Chinese names, in homage to Gene Roddenberry's creation of the Romulans as an analog to 1960's Communist China."

I thought they were a homage to Romans.
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Old September 17 2013, 12:33 AM   #25
Khan444
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Yes, I thought so too. They have a Senate and a Preator, just like the Romans did. They rule by consensus, just like the Romans. There's the whole Romulus and Remus analogy, and the militarism, how were they based on Communist China, I don't get that?
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Old September 17 2013, 10:55 PM   #26
DWF
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Khan444 wrote: View Post
Yes, I thought so too. They have a Senate and a Preator, just like the Romans did. They rule by consensus, just like the Romans. There's the whole Romulus and Remus analogy, and the militarism, how were they based on Communist China, I don't get that?
Think back to the '60s when China was still hidden away and flexing their muscles behind the scenes and the Soviet Union was seemingly actively trying to take over the world. The Klingons were the Soviets and the Romulans were the mysterious Chinese. Much of that changed during the modern Trek series especially TNG.
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Old September 19 2013, 12:15 AM   #27
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
But again why didn't Shinzon plan on destroying Romulus instead of Earth, if the Romulans were the ones responsible for his misfortune?
Because he wants to defeat Earth easily, and show the Romulan people that he could achieve what the Romulans' leaders had always failed to do - over centuries: destroy Earth.
That doesn't make sense, why does he want to defeat Earth at all? To further Romulan interests? He has no reason to further their interests, why should care about showing the Romulans what he can achieve, when he has every reason to hate them?

Again, the destorying Earth plot would have made sense if Shinzon was merely an over ambitious Romulan commander who hated the Federation, instead some evil clone raised by space Orcs who had no reason to hate the Federation.
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Old September 19 2013, 12:21 AM   #28
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Yep, his target should have been Romulus. Having the Enterprise saving the home planet of the Romulan Empire would have been a much more significant event as well.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:44 PM   #29
SchwEnt
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Re: Shinzon's motives

billcosby wrote: View Post
Shinzon's page at Memory Alpha is really interesting. This is what I found intriguing:
"In his foreword to J.M. Dillard's novelization of the film, screenwriter John Logan says that he based the name "Shinzon", as well as all the other Reman and Romulan names in the story on ancient Chinese names, in homage to Gene Roddenberry's creation of the Romulans as an analog to 1960's Communist China."

I thought they were a homage to Romans.
--but Gene Roddenberry didn't create the Romulans. Weren't they created by Paul Schneider in "Balance of Terror"? And yes, they were an homage to Romans.

It was only later when the Klingon Empire came along and then it was suggested Klingons were a stand-in for the USSR. Then later again, well if the Klingons were the Soviets, who were the Romulans supposed to be? Well, Communist China? Cuz who else is left? Cubans?

But the Romulans were not designed as a Communist China analog, and they weren't created by GR. What's Logan thinking?
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Old September 19 2013, 04:03 PM   #30
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Re: Shinzon's motives

Shinzon's motives were very confusing. He has such hostility and hatred for Picard, a man who has done nothing for him. He eradicates the Romulan Senate, but that's where his revenge against the people who created him and then dumped into a pit to rot ended. He should have been on a bigger rampage against the Romulan Empire, rather than Earth/UFP.

Then they should have dropped the whole "if you'd had my life you'd be just the same as me" and "I'm a mirror" crap. The nature-vs-nurture debate does not need a film made about it, especially not a Trek film.

Nemesis should have been the TNG crew's ST6, with them and the Romulans finally starting to make proper overtures towards peace.
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