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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 18 2013, 02:19 PM   #526
Ovation
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Re: Orci strikes back

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
If Orci didn't want to deal with over-critical fans, many of whom actively worked on keeping the franchise alive for decades, judging his work, maybe he should work on reviving a different franchise. Maybe the Transformers? Spiderman?
So only people who are prepared to receive any and all criticism without any complaint, no matter how unfounded and vulgar some (not all) of it might be should be "allowed" to work on an intellectual property with "over-critical fans"? Really? That's a steaming pile of horse manure (and having worked in a stable to pay for tuition years ago, I know horse manure when I smell it).
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Old September 18 2013, 02:28 PM   #527
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Re: Orci strikes back

Shazam! wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Let's see how your favourite Trek movie or episodes hold up under the kind of scrutiny Into Darkness is recieving.
Why?
As I said, to see how they hold up to scrutiny. And to see if you can excuse any issues without citing similar examples in other episodes or movies, which is exactly what you were saying we shouldn't do. Into Darkness shouldn't be held to a higher standard than the rest of the franchise.
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Old September 18 2013, 02:28 PM   #528
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Re: Orci strikes back

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
If Orci didn't want to deal with over-critical fans, many of whom actively worked on keeping the franchise alive for decades, judging his work, maybe he should work on reviving a different franchise. Maybe the Transformers? Spiderman?
You don't know that. And how does doing that give them any more right to be overly critical than anyone else? That's just more of the entitlement attitude that makes "fandom" look bad in my eyes.
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Old September 18 2013, 02:46 PM   #529
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Re: Orci strikes back

That's silly.

The discussion boils down to these two arguments:

1. If you don't like my Trek, you aren't allowed to like your Trek.

2. If you liked this, you MUST like that.


No, and no.
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Old September 18 2013, 02:48 PM   #530
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Re: Orci strikes back

Whats silly?
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Old September 18 2013, 02:54 PM   #531
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Re: Orci strikes back

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
That's silly.

The discussion boils down to these two arguments:

1. If you don't like my Trek, you aren't allowed to like your Trek.

2. If you liked this, you MUST like that.


No, and no.
You can like whatever you like. It just gets tiresome hearing the same criticisms from the same people over and over and over and over and over and over and over for four years solid. If I hated something that much, I wouldn't waste four years of my life complaining about it.
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Old September 18 2013, 02:58 PM   #532
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Re: Orci strikes back

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Into Darkness shouldn't be held to a higher standard than the rest of the franchise.
I disagree. Into Darkness had all the resource in the world to deliver quality yet still managed to fall short in several key areas, none of which have anything to do with what happened in that one scene of that one episode made 40+ years ago.
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Old September 18 2013, 03:21 PM   #533
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Re: Orci strikes back

Shazam! wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Into Darkness shouldn't be held to a higher standard than the rest of the franchise.
I disagree. Into Darkness had all the resource in the world to deliver quality yet still managed to fall short in several key areas, none of which have anything to do with what happened in that one scene of that one episode made 40+ years ago.
"Several key areas"? Such as? Be specific if you're going to critique something. And if you do plan to hold the Abrams films to a higher standard than the rest of Trek, be prepared to explain why. Simply declaring it should be so is not sufficient.
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Old September 18 2013, 03:27 PM   #534
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Re: Orci strikes back

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
If Orci didn't want to deal with over-critical fans, many of whom actively worked on keeping the franchise alive for decades, judging his work, maybe he should work on reviving a different franchise. Maybe the Transformers? Spiderman?
That doesn't mean he has to put up with &^% from these fans (or anybody).
Orci can respond, of course. However, he ought not be surprised or offended by criticism from dedicated fandom. He would need to anticipate the same hesitation and suspicion if he were reimagining Shakespeare or Wagner, two other areas in which there is a built in and very opinionated audience. Added to that is the lore of fan involvement in making Trek a franchise with a long life. Saying that he is approaching things de novo--which is highly debateable--won't win his critics over.
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Old September 18 2013, 04:05 PM   #535
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Re: Orci strikes back

BillJ wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
That's silly.

The discussion boils down to these two arguments:

1. If you don't like my Trek, you aren't allowed to like your Trek.

2. If you liked this, you MUST like that.


No, and no.
You can like whatever you like. It just gets tiresome hearing the same criticisms from the same people over and over and over and over and over and over and over for four years solid. If I hated something that much, I wouldn't waste four years of my life complaining about it.
The new film is four months old, it's hardly unusual for people displeased by a film to talk about their criticisms while it's still in theaters or just after.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Shazam! wrote: View Post
ichab wrote: View Post
I'd prefer the criticism to be consistent.If you hate the movie because of x,y and z while overlooking the same nitpicks with the previous movies then you're being a hypocritethe
Why can't the movie (and its praises and criticisms) be judged on its individual merit as opposed to relative to some movie made over 30 years ago?

We can't be expected to footnote every criticism with caveats and acknowledgements of previous movie/series citations.
Let's see how your favourite Trek movie or episodes hold up under the kind of scrutiny Into Darkness is recieving.
I believe TNG did and does get a lot of scrutiny (as do notably TUC and FC); under it some of it fails while some still succeeds.
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Old September 18 2013, 05:14 PM   #536
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Re: Orci strikes back

Shazam! wrote: View Post

We can't be expected to footnote every criticism with caveats and acknowledgements of previous movie/series citations.
Why not?
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Old September 18 2013, 06:05 PM   #537
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Re: Orci strikes back

Shazam! wrote: View Post
Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
If Orci didn't want to deal with over-critical fans, many of whom actively worked on keeping the franchise alive for decades, judging his work, maybe he should work on reviving a different franchise. Maybe the Transformers?
He already revived Transformers and it was shit.
He's also producing the next Spiderman.
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Old September 18 2013, 06:10 PM   #538
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Re: Orci strikes back

I think it's totally fair to expect someone to cite why 'this' or 'that' didn't work or didn't work specifically for them in STiD, or any Trek for that matter. At least, if they want their criticism to be taken seriously, that is.

Heck, I'm well aware of contrived moments in STiD. They're not deal-breakers for me is all.

And I think it is fair to compare one's complaint about an aspect of the new movie if it's happened before in Trek. To herald it or excuse it in one instance on its face, but then criticize it in STiD is really not keeping a good perspective.

If, however, the complaint is for instance Spock's "Khannnnn!" moment, that is different. It's a direct homage to what has come before. For some it works. Others - not so much. But it's a fair criticism.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:27 AM   #539
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Re: Orci strikes back

BillJ wrote: View Post
You can like whatever you like. It just gets tiresome hearing the same criticisms from the same people over and over and over and over and over and over and over for four years solid. If I hated something that much, I wouldn't waste four years of my life complaining about it.
I don't think they're complaining because they hate Trek, I think they're complaining because they love Trek. Whether you agree with them or not, they are, like the people who love the new films, passionate about Star Trek.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:42 AM   #540
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Re: Orci strikes back

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Shazam! wrote: View Post

We can't be expected to footnote every criticism with caveats and acknowledgements of previous movie/series citations.
Why not?
Because you shouldn't have to defend your argument as if you were writing a thesis just to discuss a movie. It turns a simple, fun conversation into a legal debate.

I disliked The Enterprise and Vengeance duking it out alone while the rest of StarFleet sat back and watched. As proof of the validity of my criticism, allow me to submit for your approval three pieces of evidence -- Star Trek: Nemesis, Star Trek: Generations, and Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. More evidence can be submitted if further proof is requested.
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