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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 18 2013, 01:26 AM   #16
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Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness

Yanks wrote: View Post
STID is not a rehash of either. I don't mind that they found Khan on the Botany Bay.

What chapped my arse personally was the rip-off/reversal at the end of the movie and their butchering the Spock character.

I agree though, I've been on the message boards long enough to realize this fan base can be the worst for no reason at all. Remember the death threats because they were going to kill off Spock?

I think they know they screwed up here, or at least as evidenced by the article, feel they need to explain themselves.
I think they're afraid of being shot, to be honest.
Have you seen some of the threats they've received? I'm worried that some are unhinged enough to try it!

Anyway, while I don't think it was a ripoff, I respect that you didn't like the reversal of the character death scene. I liked it, and found it to be a refreshing take on a classic theme. Your mileage may vary, of course.
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Old September 18 2013, 01:49 AM   #17
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Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
I don't think it's just the "extreme vocal internet minority". Go to Rotten Tomatoes and read the positive reviews. Most of them, while praising the movie ding the writers for rehashing old stuff.
What was it they rehashed, though? Was TWOK a rehash of "Space Seed"? Of course, not. STiD is not a rehash of TWOK. If anything, it turns "Space Seed" on its ear, and does something new with it.

That said, I'm not talking the people who generally liked it, but had a few complaints, I'm talking the people Kurtzman is trying address: the rabid "fans" who push against the writers like they are evil incarnate; or the ones that slam J.J. and insult him in the worst way, or how they blast fans of the movie like they're intellectually stunted, or inferior. Those "fans" aren't healthy for any fandom, though they do exist in every fandom. I don't think Kurtzman or Orci should give them any airtime at all. They will hate him anyway, they will vehemently disagree with him anyway. To give them recognition is to give them validity in their own minds, and that will just make it worse.

lurok wrote: View Post

Sad. But true...
I wish it weren't that way, but what can you do? Some people hate just to hate.

Harbinger wrote: View Post
Is it well liked by most traditional Star Trek fans? I keep hearing that a lot of "trekkies" (or "trekkers" or whatever) slammed it for its abundance of action and non-traditional approach.

I have yet to see Into Darkness. I loved the 2009 movie and I'm a fan of the series and all of the movies (except Search for Spock and Nemesis). Going to the blind buy the Blu-ray copy soon.
Now, that question can get sticky. What is a "traditional" fan? Is it someone who loves the original series? Is it someone who was a Trek fan from the beginning of the original show's run? What marks a "traditional" fan differently than a "non-traditional" fan, whatever that may also be?

Star Trek has always been filled with action. Look at First Contact, one of the most beloved Trek movies in the past 20 years. The Wrath of Khan was packed with action! Vengeance! Destruction! Old enemies meet to face off against one another in a battle of firepower among the stars!

Yes, STiD has action, almost at a frenetic pace, but that can be workable, so long as the director is capable, and J.J. is more than capable of making it work. I felt plenty of emotional, and intellectual arguments being made throughout the movie. That J.J. was able to cram so much into two hours and 12 minutes is nothing short of amazing to me. Look at TMP, a film of lethargic pacing. It did in 3 hours what could have been done in 15 minutes. It's considered cerebral, high concept and, whether you agree with that or not, boring. Hell, people called it The Motionless Picture.

For what it's worth, I enjoy TMP, but it lacks significant character moments (save for the end), and the pacing is glacial. It's a wonderful story of visuals, and high concept ideas, but the execution isn't the best, and I say that as a devotee of Robert Wise's work.

With that in mind, would I go into TMP and say "Robert Wise was an idiot! He killed the franchise! Only a moron would like TMP!" Of course not! I might talk about the pacing, I may remark how I do or do not like some moments in the film, but I'm there to discuss the film, not tear it to shreds and curse the livelihoods of the writers and director. To me that's an indication that one has lost a bit of grip on the chain of reality.

This is all just a more verbose way of saying that Trek fans who slam it for being mindless action are guilty of selective criticism. You apply that same label to their favorite Trek movie, and they'll shock, gasp, and immediately launch into a tirade about how you just don't see the bigger picture. We all do it, we all have our sacred cows, but that's because we all have our reasons for loving the movies that we do.

My least favorite film is Star Trek: Nemesis, and I could go on about why I don't like so many aspects of it, but I don't go into the movies forum and slam it at every opportunity. I don't mock Stuart Baird like he's a fool, because he's not. I didn't like his direction regarding the film, but I know he's a capable editor, and I doubt he's actually stupid. I've seen the films he's edited; I know better than to believe he's incompetent. I just didn't like how he directed Nemesis, and that should be respected, just as I respect those who don't like my favorite movies (I love TFF, for example, and I KNOW how maligned that film is).

Live and let live, I say. Granted, if I see someone say something I know is in error, I will act to correct it (for example, "Spock never showed emotion in the original series! This movie changed that!), but if it's just an opinion ("I don't like the lighting, it's too bright!"), then I'm fine with that.

I'm rambling now, so I'll go ahead and stop, should you have any questions, comments, whisky. I'll accept all three.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
This ^ These people turned out a fun and profitable movie, and they get treated like crap for it.

There are times I'm embarrassed for our fandom the way the vocal minority has become the "face" of it.
I am embarrassed for the people who have to deal with it every day, and I always hope they don't think the majority of fans are like that.
J. Allen wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
STID is not a rehash of either. I don't mind that they found Khan on the Botany Bay.

What chapped my arse personally was the rip-off/reversal at the end of the movie and their butchering the Spock character.

I agree though, I've been on the message boards long enough to realize this fan base can be the worst for no reason at all. Remember the death threats because they were going to kill off Spock?

I think they know they screwed up here, or at least as evidenced by the article, feel they need to explain themselves.
I think they're afraid of being shot, to be honest.
Have you seen some of the threats they've received? I'm worried that some are unhinged enough to try it!

Anyway, while I don't think it was a ripoff, I respect that you didn't like the reversal of the character death scene. I liked it, and found it to be a refreshing take on a classic theme. Your mileage may vary, of course.
That's cool. I don't begrudge anyone for liking it. (and I don't intend on shooting anyone )

To me, when you look at how easy it would have been to end it differently, it seemed like a slap in the face.
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Old September 18 2013, 02:02 AM   #18
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Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness

Yanks wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post

Me to seer.

But they are getting "shit on" here because they "went where no trek writer should have gone".

They gave themselves a clean slate for storytelling and robbed one of, if not the most emotional iconic moment of all trek. (at least the movies).

I'll side with the faithful here.
Thing, ever since TWOK Trek has been riding that them every chance they got. There must have been a well worn Cliff Notes copy of Moby Dick in the Star Trek writer's office back in the day.
Glad they did. It's what made TWoK so good.

Good seeing you again bud.
Hi ya'.
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Old September 18 2013, 02:40 AM   #19
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Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post

Thing, ever since TWOK Trek has been riding that them every chance they got. There must have been a well worn Cliff Notes copy of Moby Dick in the Star Trek writer's office back in the day.
Glad they did. It's what made TWoK so good.

Good seeing you again bud.
Hi ya'.
Think I'll start posting here more often. So many more participants.
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Old September 18 2013, 02:57 AM   #20
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Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness

Yanks wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post

Glad they did. It's what made TWoK so good.

Good seeing you again bud.
Hi ya'.
Think I'll start posting here more often. So many more participants.
Be good to have ya'. Just bring the "A" Game and don't expect mercy. And should you ever wonder into TNZ...well
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Old September 18 2013, 03:03 AM   #21
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Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post

Hi ya'.
Think I'll start posting here more often. So many more participants.
Big good to have ya'. Just bring the "A" Game and don't expect mercy. And should you ever wonder into TNZ...well


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Old September 18 2013, 03:04 AM   #22
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Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness

Yanks wrote: View Post
Glad they did. It's what made TWoK so good.
No.

The Moby Dick crap in TWOK is one of it's weaker elements. If not for Monty's awesome delivery, I think people would see it more for what it really was: a ham-fisted attempt to bring cohesion to a conceptually weak and inconsistent villain.

It's the one thing (Well, besides the score.) that First Contact does better. The comparison of Picard to Ahab was proper allusion. In fact, I'd bet that Braga/Moore would have included it even had it not been in TWOK since it was the natural conclusion to Picard's story arc with the Borg. Even still, like Khan, it too was heavy-handed and probably superfluous.

Staying with First Contact, Picard's silent "Alas, poor Yorick" lament is an example of great allusion. It's powerful in its subtlety, and was an inspired act of sheer brilliance on Stewart's part. I don't have many great things to say about FC, but that's one. Also, the score.
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Old September 18 2013, 03:14 AM   #23
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Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
Glad they did. It's what made TWoK so good.
No.

The Moby Dick crap in TWOK is one of it's weaker elements. If not for Monty's awesome delivery, I think people would see it more for what it really was: a ham-fisted attempt to bring cohesion to a conceptually weak and inconsistent villain.

It's the one thing (Well, besides the score.) that First Contact does better. The comparison of Picard to Ahab was proper allusion. In fact, I'd bet that Braga/Moore would have included it even had it not been in TWOK since it was the natural conclusion to Picard's story arc with the Borg. Even still, like Khan, it too was heavy-handed and probably superfluous.

Staying with First Contact, Picard's silent "Alas, poor Yorick" lament is an example of great allusion. It's powerful in its subtlety, and was an inspired act of sheer brilliance on Stewart's part. I don't have many great things to say about FC, but that's one. Also, the score.
This sums up why I think TWoK is so damn good.

http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/film2.asp
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Old September 18 2013, 03:23 AM   #24
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Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Honestly, he shouldn't have to defend anything. The film is a success, it's popular, it's well liked by most fans. The only reason he probably feels this way is because of an extreme vocal internet minority, who seem to hate anything that even evinces the prospect of change. Such fans tend to be implacable, so it's best to ignore them. Focus on what's good instead.
My thoughts as well. IMO this is just sour grapes from a small bunch of amateur/wanna be writers.
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Old September 18 2013, 04:21 AM   #25
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Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
Honestly, he shouldn't have to defend anything. The film is a success, it's popular, it's well liked by most fans. The only reason he probably feels this way is because of an extreme vocal internet minority, who seem to hate anything that even evinces the prospect of change. Such fans tend to be implacable, so it's best to ignore them. Focus on what's good instead.
This ^ These people turned out a fun and profitable movie, and they get treated like crap for it.

There are times I'm embarrassed for our fandom the way the vocal minority has become the "face" of it.
What, it's an objective fact that Into Darkness was a fun movie, was it? You're embarrassed by people who don't like a film that you like? Really now? I think you've watched that Onion video a few too many times.
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Old September 18 2013, 04:42 AM   #26
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Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
Honestly, he shouldn't have to defend anything. The film is a success, it's popular, it's well liked by most fans. The only reason he probably feels this way is because of an extreme vocal internet minority, who seem to hate anything that even evinces the prospect of change. Such fans tend to be implacable, so it's best to ignore them. Focus on what's good instead.
This ^ These people turned out a fun and profitable movie, and they get treated like crap for it.

There are times I'm embarrassed for our fandom the way the vocal minority has become the "face" of it.
What, it's an objective fact that Into Darkness was a fun movie, was it? You're embarrassed by people who don't like a film that you like? Really now? I think you've watched that Onion video a few too many times.
I'm embarrassed for our fandom, cause the jerks are becoming our public face. The don't have to like the movie, but their actions are giving the fandom a bad rep. The members of any of the production teams shouldn't be subject to abuse by "so called fans" for simply doing their jobs. Basically, from a PR standpoint, we're angling right back around to the stereotype to the basement dwelling virgins with no life.
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Old September 18 2013, 06:21 AM   #27
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Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
Honestly, he shouldn't have to defend anything. The film is a success, it's popular, it's well liked by most fans. The only reason he probably feels this way is because of an extreme vocal internet minority, who seem to hate anything that even evinces the prospect of change. Such fans tend to be implacable, so it's best to ignore them. Focus on what's good instead.
This ^ These people turned out a fun and profitable movie, and they get treated like crap for it.

There are times I'm embarrassed for our fandom the way the vocal minority has become the "face" of it.
What, it's an objective fact that Into Darkness was a fun movie, was it? You're embarrassed by people who don't like a film that you like? Really now?
Well, that's not quite what he said, is it?

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
I think you've watched that Onion video a few too many times.
And that's a bit more personal than was really called for. Less of that, please.
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Old September 18 2013, 09:10 AM   #28
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Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness

This is just Kurtzman covering his back, everyone does in this business. He seems relieved if anything and that probably stems from the poor execution of STID's ending. It's funny but STID is like that of The Dark Knight if you compare these two trilogies- yes I can call JJ Trek a trilogy since Paramount are most certainly greenlighting a third film.

The Dark Knight set a precedent for OTT scenes and heart-stopping emotive scenes every five minutes, but it was justified because you had the Joker, brilliantly played by Heath Ledger who made it all work out. You were simply enraptured in a perverse and sick way to this character. But it's the only reason why the Dark Knight worked out so well as it did. I think too many blockbusters are trying to emulate the Dark Knight, I think STID suffered a little from this to.

Let's do a little comparison:

Main character must face up to his responsibilities as the consequences of his role catch up with him. Check.

Two villains. Check.

A significant person in the main character's life dies. Check.

Death of this significant person causes the main character to go off the rails. Check.

The primary villain is ruthless and god damn crazy at times. Check.

The secondary villain starts out as a hero and ends up as the villain. Check.

The primary villain deliberately lets himself be captured. Check.

The main character discovers his true purpose after the most testing of trials. Check. Check!


I'm sure there are more similarities of the basic constituent plot parts. STID though seems to have its basic premise grafted off the Dark Knight and quite a few of the plot details from TWOK/Space Seed. There's nothing wrong with combos since all films are a combination of several, or more, older films. It's how you execute them which really matters.

And STID was working out so well during the initial two thirds of its runtime, but the writers botched the last third. It was a good death scene but ruined by Spock screaming Khan and Kirk being brought back from the dead hours later. They used a Deus Ex Machina which totally trivialized the death scene. Then of course Kirk's speech which was a little empty considering revenge was Kirk's initial reason for tracking down Khan.

What happened? STID would have been a home run for me if Kirk stayed dead, Spock's external pain was simply confined to his eyes, Khan escaped and Spock gave that speech. Four little things which could have been done in the last fifteen minutes or so. They fumbled the ending and robbed it of its meaning and power, which sadly cast a shadow on the rest of the film.

I think maybe Kurtzman and co are somewhat regretting this but they got away with it and so they should if you want a decent sci-fi action flick. It's not about the plot holes, hell the Dark Knight is all over the place but you ignore them just so you can see more of the Joker, but wrapping it all up. The DK gave us a solid conclusion/continuation. STID? A little shaky to what was a really good ST movie in the first half.

And it's a shame because Star Trek has never looked so good from a visual point of view.

As for the Onion video about Star Trek fans, it sure hit the nail on the head!
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Old September 18 2013, 09:35 AM   #29
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Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness

Yanks wrote: View Post
That's cool. I don't begrudge anyone for liking it. (and I don't intend on shooting anyone )

To me, when you look at how easy it would have been to end it differently, it seemed like a slap in the face.
I get what you're saying. I've seen films where the story has been built, the characters have been fleshed out, and I'm just waiting for the big payoff and... *fizzle*. It happens. I don't feel that way about STiD, but I can understand why you might.
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Old September 18 2013, 09:44 AM   #30
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Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
That's cool. I don't begrudge anyone for liking it. (and I don't intend on shooting anyone )

To me, when you look at how easy it would have been to end it differently, it seemed like a slap in the face.
I get what you're saying. I've seen films where the story has been built, the characters have been fleshed out, and I'm just waiting for the big payoff and... *fizzle*. It happens. I don't feel that way about STiD, but I can understand why you might.
This!

The payoff! STID has, for me anyway, the poorest payoff out of all of the ST movies I've seen.
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