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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old September 17 2013, 11:34 PM   #196
Warped9
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Re: STAR TREK the enemy of LOST IN SPACE?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
I think also there are some people who will simply not accept a Star Trek reboot no matter how good it is.

That said, I didn't like the Abrams films.. But I'm all for future Trek reboots.
A reboot of Trek was inevitable just as other properties have been rebooted. Sometimes it works and sometimes not.
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Old September 18 2013, 12:11 AM   #197
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Re: STAR TREK the enemy of LOST IN SPACE?

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Well I suspect a lot of people would been more accepting of ENT's continuity problems if the writing had just been a lot stronger, and not so painfully cheesy and derivative (and seemingly aimed only at teenage boys). I think that's what makes the biggest difference for most fans.
Except that the "true" TOS fans were just as hostile toward TNG when it came along. Granted, it took a couple of seasons before it started getting really good, but some fans took even longer than that to accept it. Quality can help overcome the initial resistance, but the resistance is going to be there as a kneejerk reflex anyway.

Even I'm not immune to it. When I got the assignment to take over the post-series Enterprise novels and went back and rewatched the series, I found I liked it a lot better the second time around. The first time, I'd watched it through the filter of "Oh, that's not what I expected"/"That's not what I would've done," and that colored my view of it. But when I came back and just accepted that it was what it was, took it on its own terms rather than weighing it against my preconceptions, I found it had a lot more merits. Oh, it definitely had its flaws and its failures, but a lot about it worked quite well for me.
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Old September 18 2013, 12:29 AM   #198
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Re: STAR TREK the enemy of LOST IN SPACE?

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One could argue that classic Trek earned our suspension of disbelief for its weaker elements by all that it got right. Abrams Trek assumes that suspension without having earned it on its own merits.
Oh please. As someone who also saw TOS first run on NBC; the above argument makes little sense as there was PLENTY that TOS (especially 'The Cage') 'got wrong' too. I mean hell, they are 18 light years from Talos IV; yet at 'Timewarp Factor 7' - get there in about 30 seconds. Amazing Kirk's Enterprise which was certainly upgraded/refit with newer components after 12 years, could seem to match that speed, etc.)

And if you go by the first run Nielson ratings of Star Trek - in general, audiences didn't 'buy it' (IE it didn't 'earn their suspension of disbelief') on the initial run either.
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Old September 18 2013, 12:37 AM   #199
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Re: STAR TREK the enemy of LOST IN SPACE?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
I've found Trek movies to be too action-obsessed ever since TWOK. TMP was an attempt to make ST into thoughtful SF cinema in the vein of 2001 or Silent Running, but by that point, Star Wars had introduced a new paradigm and the pressure was on for every SF movie to be about action and space battles, and Trek succumbed to that pressure from TWOK onward. It's one of the reasons why Trek movies in general are rarely among the best examples of Trek storytelling -- the nature and expectations of SF movies in the modern era tend to work against the franchise's strengths.
Agreed. Well said.

But that's not the only reasons JJ treks are a huge fail in my estimation.
To me they have more in common with TRANSFORMERS films than with TOS; they're action movies whose scripts are built around (and out of) action set pieces, one right after the other. You can feel when you're at the beginning of a set piece, in the middle, at the end, and when the next one starts. It's predictable. One after another after another. It used to be that a film script would provide rising action throughout the film; the actions scenes would be the payoff, have more power because of the build-up. Now action rises, falls; rises, falls; rises, falls; at a steady and prediactable rate. It makes for a really flat movie experience.

For someone who claims not to have known anything about screenplay structure, Nick Meyer structured TWoK perfectly. That kind of structure has virtually gone out the window now, and I think it's a shame. It's not JJ Abrams' fault, that's just the way action movies are made these day.


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If it were to become nothing but an exercise in nostalgia for the past, that would be a terrible fate for it.
And that right there is why I just can't get into the fan series. More power to the writers, director, actors doing these things; clearly they're in it for the love. But I want Trek to be more than a self-referential fanwank.
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Old September 18 2013, 12:48 AM   #200
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Re: STAR TREK the enemy of LOST IN SPACE?

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Oh please. As someone who also saw TOS first run on NBC; the above argument makes little sense as there was PLENTY that TOS (especially 'The Cage') 'got wrong' too. I mean hell, they are 18 light years from Talos IV; yet at 'Timewarp Factor 7' - get there in about 30 seconds.
I think there was a time-passing dissolve during that warp sequence. We saw them set out, we saw them arrive, but there was a transition that skipped over the travel time in between.

But how about this: they've just come from Rigel, and are heading to Vega Colony for medical treatment. Rigel is 863 light-years from Earth... and 883 light-years from Vega! They're in more or less opposite directions from us. There is no way in hell that Vega is a convenient stopover point after leaving Rigel.

Heck, even in Star Trek Star Charts and the novels, where Trek's Rigel has been retconned into a nearer "Beta Rigel" system, it's still closer to Earth than it is to Vega.
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Old September 18 2013, 01:15 AM   #201
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Re: STAR TREK the enemy of LOST IN SPACE?

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And I'm really sorry I brought it up, because I do not want to see yet another thread dragged off-topic by people who can't stop complaining about Abrams. Okay, you didn't like the movies, we get it, but this thread isn't about that. So let's get back to Trek vs. Lost in Space, please.
Just for the record, I respected your request and haven't posted about the Abrams films in this thread for the last two days....

Noname Given wrote: View Post
Oh please. As someone who also saw TOS first run on NBC; the above argument makes little sense as there was PLENTY that TOS (especially 'The Cage') 'got wrong' too. I mean hell, they are 18 light years from Talos IV; yet at 'Timewarp Factor 7' - get there in about 30 seconds. Amazing Kirk's Enterprise which was certainly upgraded/refit with newer components after 12 years, could seem to match that speed, etc.)

And if you go by the first run Nielson ratings of Star Trek - in general, audiences didn't 'buy it' (IE it didn't 'earn their suspension of disbelief') on the initial run either.
You can nitpick TOS all you want, that won't change my purely subjective opinion, to which I am entitled, that TOS has a much better Right : Wrong ratio than the Abrams films.

I don't even hate the Abrams films...I'm on the fence about them. But god forbid I should post two sentences about them that aren't glowing with praise, lest I be chastised for being one of those unreasonable Abrams haters.

And if the TOS's original broadcast ratings had any bearing whatsoever on its fandom, this board wouldn't exist and we'd all be dispersed between boards about Bonanza, The Andy Griffith Show, and Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In.

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Old September 18 2013, 02:01 AM   #202
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Re: STAR TREK the enemy of LOST IN SPACE?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
You can nitpick TOS all you want, that won't change my purely subjective opinion, to which I am entitled, that TOS has a much better Right : Wrong ratio than the Abrams films.
As I've said, I think that's not so much about the "Abrams" part as about the "films" part. I think you could make the same statement about televised Trek in general versus feature-film Trek in general. I acknowledge that there are things the Abrams films can legitimately be criticized for, but I think the previous 10 films have many of the same problems among them. So maybe it's unfair to compare the Abrams movies to the TOS television series. Maybe the comparison should be movies vs. movies.
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Old September 18 2013, 02:10 AM   #203
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Re: STAR TREK the enemy of LOST IN SPACE?

^You've got a point there. The TOS and TNG films increasingly felt like "dumbed down" Trek as the series went on. The Abrams films just take the trend further.

And for the record, I enjoyed both Abrams films a lot more than a couple of the weaker installments amongst the previous 10 films. They are perfectly entertaining films in their own right.
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Old September 18 2013, 03:17 AM   #204
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Re: STAR TREK the enemy of LOST IN SPACE?

I agree that's a good point. I rarely rewatch a Trek film. I would kind of like to see III since people have been saying good things about it lately.
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Old September 18 2013, 03:18 AM   #205
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Re: STAR TREK the enemy of LOST IN SPACE?

I'll concede that the science and technology are even more implausible and inconsistent in the Abrams films, though the bar for that in the Trek films was set horrendously low as soon as the Genesis torpedo exploded. But I think the Abrams films are richer and bolder when it comes to character-based storytelling, and that's what really sells the films for me. I think they have a lot of emotional intelligence, and that side of them is very cleverly and deftly told. Maybe that's why they're so popular with general audiences who couldn't care less about the continuity or technical aspects -- because they're more emotionally engaging, with more intense character arcs.

Anyway, does anyone have anything more to say about Lost in Space?
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Old September 18 2013, 03:20 AM   #206
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Re: STAR TREK the enemy of LOST IN SPACE?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Anyway, does anyone have anything more to say about Lost in Space?
I'd easily watch first season LIS before JJtrek.
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Old September 18 2013, 03:28 AM   #207
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Re: STAR TREK the enemy of LOST IN SPACE?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Anyway, does anyone have anything more to say about Lost in Space?
I've been holding back on that topic because so many people in this thread like the show. But as somebody who has no attachment to the show but has caught some of it on Me-TV in recent times....Wow...makes Abrams Trek look like Shakespeare.
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Old September 18 2013, 03:40 AM   #208
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Re: STAR TREK the enemy of LOST IN SPACE?

I don't hate the show---the first season anyway---but I can see where it could have done things differently. It's not really fair to compare it with Star Trek because the shows were trying for different things. In the end it comes down to what you're looking for in science fiction on television.
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Old September 18 2013, 03:54 AM   #209
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Re: STAR TREK the enemy of LOST IN SPACE?

FWIW, my opinion of the show isn't based on comparing it to Trek. It's just way too much cheese for my diet.
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Old September 18 2013, 04:45 AM   #210
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Re: STAR TREK the enemy of LOST IN SPACE?

I just think it's unfair to speak about Lost in Space as a single uniform whole. The first season is a very different show from the other two, and though it gets sillier over time, some of its early episodes are fairly good. I'm particularly fond of "My Friend, Mr. Nobody," which had a solid Jackson Gillis script as well as the finest score in the series.
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