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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 17 2013, 05:59 PM   #16
Franklin
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

THE WOMEN!

(Sorry, had to be said.)

We're seeing young Spock in the new movies just like we're seeing young Kirk. The little we saw of young Spock in "The Cage" would lead one to believe he was more emotional as a young man in the prime universe, too.

The interesting thing about this Spock is his explanation for why he doesn't want to feel. He's closing off his emotions because the feelings from the loss of Vulcan are just too much to endure. Someone in a review of the movie likened it to how Holocaust survivors in real life coped with their horrors by simply choosing not to feel.

Lest we forget, Spock is a very complex character (both of them).
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Old September 18 2013, 12:47 AM   #17
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Well, Spock(prime) was emotionally "compromised" in ST09 as well. He didn't go off on an illogical emotional rampage.

They've completely lost nuSpock.

In STID, he loses a "friend" that he's been at odds with and hated so he does what?

1. Balls and screams "Khan"

2. Flies TOWARDS EARTH with Khan and the Vengeance in tow for no apparent reason whatsoever.

3. Goes all Incredible Hulk on Khan with the intent of killing him.

That is in no way "Spock". Unless of course he's experiencing Pon-far and is in a blind uncontrollable rage or somehow ingested Trellium-D.

Not the Spock we all know and love.

Nothing in "nu" Trek should have changed the character.
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Old September 18 2013, 01:14 AM   #18
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

I'd like a Spock who has some mystery to him, actually seems like he's alien and not just a passive-aggressive human.
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Old September 18 2013, 01:18 AM   #19
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Yanks wrote: View Post
Well, Spock(prime) was emotionally "compromised" in ST09 as well. He didn't go off on an illogical emotional rampage.
You mean the much older Spock who has lived his life and knows his actual friends are alive and well in the prime universe from which he came?

They've completely lost nuSpock.
Lost him from where? This universe is somewhat different from the prime universe. It's like saying "this orange doesn't taste at all like the other apples."

In STID, he loses a "friend" that he's been at odds with and hated so he does what?
Why have friend in quotes? Kirk is Spock's friend, or at least they seem to be working toward a friendship in ST09. By STiD some time has passed, and they have become friends. Each offers their own attributes to that friendship, but they are friends. Why do you think Kirk was so upset that Spock filed the Nubira report without telling him? Because he trusted Spock as a friend to let him know. Spock didn't understand Kirk's anger because Spock's idea of friendship was a bit different. That doesn't change that they were friends.

1. Balls and screams "Khan"
Balls what? Do you mean "bawls"? He cries because in less than a handful of years, he's lost his first home, most of his race, his mother, and nearly lost his friends.

Now he sees the man whom he has drawn closer to, laying in front of him, dying after having sacrificed himself to save the ship. This is his family. Thanks to his meld with Pike, he now knows the pain of fear and confusion one experiences upon death, and it mirrors his own, and in that moment, he just loses the last bit of logical cohesion that kept him in check.

He's a Vulcan, not a robot. Why is this difficult to understand?

2. Flies TOWARDS EARTH with Khan and the Vengeance in tow for no apparent reason whatsoever.
Flies toward what? The Enterprise was without power and caught in Earth's gravity well. It was plummeting toward the surface. There's no "apparent reason" because it didn't happen the way you say it did.

3. Goes all Incredible Hulk on Khan with the intent of killing him.
"Incredible Hulk"? The man was enraged that Khan had killed his friend, his brother in every meaningful sense of the word, a man who turned on him and the crew of the Enterprise, and tried to kill them all. He saw him getting away, and pursued him with intent to end it once and for all.

Again, not a robot, never was.

That is in no way "Spock". Unless of course he's experiencing Pon-far and is in a blind uncontrollable rage or somehow ingested Trellium-D.
Not the Spock we all know and love.
Apparently you know and love a different Spock. In fact, you do know and love a different Spock. One from another timeline where none of the tragedies that befell this Spock had ever happened.

Nothing in "nu" Trek should have changed the character.
Seriously? You'd see most of humanity die, lose your mother, watch your friend die sacrificing himself to save you, face death yourself only to survive, and watch a madman try to kill your family, and would walk away from it unfazed?

Congratulations, you've outSpocked Leonard Nimoy. Go collect your pointed ears.
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Old September 18 2013, 01:25 AM   #20
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

I think part of the issue for some (not for me) is that we're getting seventy-nine episodes and six movies worth of character development compressed down into what will be three or four films.

They simply don't have the time to be subtle with this version of the character.
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Old September 18 2013, 01:44 AM   #21
Yanks
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
Well, Spock(prime) was emotionally "compromised" in ST09 as well. He didn't go off on an illogical emotional rampage.
You mean the much older Spock who has lived his life and knows his actual friends are alive and well in the prime universe from which he came?
Yes, the same Spock that refused to help his dying father.

...and this is the same timeline for Spock(prime), just earlier.

They've completely lost nuSpock.
Lost him from where? This universe is somewhat different from the prime universe. It's like saying "this orange doesn't taste at all like the other apples."
No, not at all.



Why have friend in quotes? Kirk is Spock's friend, or at least they seem to be working toward a friendship in ST09. By STiD some time has passed, and they have become friends. Each offers their own attributes to that friendship, but they are friends. Why do you think Kirk was so upset that Spock filed the Nubira report without telling him? Because he trusted Spock as a friend to let him know. Spock didn't understand Kirk's anger because Spock's idea of friendship was a bit different. That doesn't change that they were friends.
I can understand that Kirk realizes the friendship there because of his mind meld with Spock(prime). But nuSpock has not been friends with Kirk long enough to have established such a strong meaningful bond.



Balls what? Do you mean "bawls"? He cries because in less than a handful of years, he's lost his first home, most of his race, his mother, and nearly lost his friends.

Now he sees the man whom he has drawn closer to, laying in front of him, dying after having sacrificed himself to save the ship. This is his family. Thanks to his meld with Pike, he now knows the pain of fear and confusion one experiences upon death, and it mirrors his own, and in that moment, he just loses the last bit of logical cohesion that kept him in check.
See above.

He's a Vulcan, not a robot. Why is this difficult to understand?
I understand it perfectly.



Flies toward what? The Enterprise was without power and caught in Earth's gravity well. It was plummeting toward the surface. There's no "apparent reason" because it didn't happen the way you say it did.
Correct, my mistake.

So why did Commander Spock lead Khan back to Earth? How is that prudent here? Was there an armada of Star Fleet ships there to assist him?

"Incredible Hulk"? The man was enraged that Khan had killed his friend, his brother in every meaningful sense of the word, a man who turned on him and the crew of the Enterprise, and tried to kill them all. He saw him getting away, and pursued him with intent to end it once and for all.

Again, not a robot, never was.
Never said he was. But he was never an out of control emotional loon either.

Not the Spock we all know and love.
Apparently you know and love a different Spock. In fact, you do know and love a different Spock. One from another timeline where none of the tragedies that befell this Spock had ever happened.
OK, sure.

Nothing in "nu" Trek should have changed the character.
Seriously? You'd see most of humanity die, lose your mother, watch your friend die sacrificing himself to save you, face death yourself only to survive, and watch a madman try to kill your family, and would walk away from it unfazed?
Didn't say unfazed.

Congratulations, you've outSpocked Leonard Nimoy. Go collect your pointed ears.
Thank you. I suppose you say his cameo in this movie was good writing too.
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Old September 18 2013, 01:47 AM   #22
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Yanks wrote: View Post
I can understand that Kirk realizes the friendship there because of his mind meld with Spock(prime). But nuSpock has not been friends with Kirk long enough to have established such a strong meaningful bond.
So the strength of friendship is dictated first and foremost by how long you've been friends with someone? That's news to me.
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Old September 18 2013, 01:50 AM   #23
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Yanks wrote: View Post

Thank you. I suppose you say his cameo in this movie was good writing too.
I complained loudly about this when I saw the movie the first four times and that Spock would attempt to contact New Vulcan instead of Earth. The fifth-time I was watching and complaining, my wife looked at me and said, "there is probably no one on Earth that he feels he can trust".

And you know what? She was fucking right. Just because you think something is bad, doesn't mean it actually is bad.
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Old September 18 2013, 02:31 AM   #24
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Yanks wrote: View Post
Yes, the same Spock that refused to help his dying father.
Because people generally react the same to [somewhat] similar situations when they're 80 the same way they did when they were 25.

But this demonstrates you clearly don't understand the difference.

It was obvious that NimoySpock was always at odds with Sarek and had a much better relationship with his mother--this goes as far back as "Babel."

This was clearly the case for Quinto Spock as well (as shown in the first act of ST09). But it all changed the instant Amanda was killed. Fast forward to nuSpocks theoretical future, and I guarantee he'll be at nuSarek's bedside should he still develop Vulcan Alzheimer's--which isn't a certainty anymore.


...and this is the same timeline for Spock(prime), just earlier.
No.
But nuSpock has not been friends with Kirk long enough to have established such a strong meaningful bond.
Bullshit.

I understand it perfectly.
Your posts suggest otherwise.

So why did Commander Spock lead Khan back to Earth?
He didn't?

But he was never an out of control emotional loon either.
Because, aside from dying and then magically resurrecting, he lived a pretty uneventful life. Non the less, he was still emotional ... all the time.

Thank you. I suppose you say his cameo in this movie was good writing too.
It was an unfortunate necessity. Omitting Spock Prime would have been a plot hole. Having him say, "Yes I'm here. I'm would not normally intervene, but since this the guy everyone in the audience recognizes as Star Trek's uberbad, I'm going to set this one-time exception..." Sets a precedent. This actually part of the reason the villian HAD to be Khan. Now they don't ever have to tap this well again (no matter how many more films they make). Think of it as a prophylactic should something unfortunately happen to Nimoy.

It's actually fastidious, albeit awkward, writing.
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Old September 18 2013, 03:25 AM   #25
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
I can understand that Kirk realizes the friendship there because of his mind meld with Spock(prime). But nuSpock has not been friends with Kirk long enough to have established such a strong meaningful bond.
So the strength of friendship is dictated first and foremost by how long you've been friends with someone? That's news to me.
Seriously Yanks? A year of serving together on the same ship, going on missions, basically spending 24 hours a day together when not sleeping, isn't long enough to form a meaningful bond? How long should it take? I'd be willing to bet a week or at most a month under those circumstances is pretty much enough for most people
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Old September 18 2013, 03:47 AM   #26
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Sindatur wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
I can understand that Kirk realizes the friendship there because of his mind meld with Spock(prime). But nuSpock has not been friends with Kirk long enough to have established such a strong meaningful bond.
So the strength of friendship is dictated first and foremost by how long you've been friends with someone? That's news to me.
Seriously Yanks? A year of serving together on the same ship, going on missions, basically spending 24 hours a day together when not sleeping, isn't long enough to form a meaningful bond? How long should it take? I'd be willing to bet a week or at most a month under those circumstances is pretty much enough for most people
I'd say there's evidence in the movie that Kirk and Spock don't really have that meaningful a bond of friendship, given that Spock snitched on Kirk for saving his life resulting in Kirk getting demoted.

And really, Kirk and Spock's friendship is not as profound and meaningful in STID as it was in TWOK. In the Abrams continuity, the two were antagonistic towards each other to the point that it took Spock Prime showing up to say "yeah, we were BFF in my timeline" for them to talk to each other.
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Old September 18 2013, 03:49 AM   #27
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post

I'd say there's evidence in the movie that Kirk and Spock don't really have that meaningful a bond of friendship, given that Spock snitched on Kirk for saving his life resulting in Kirk getting demoted.
I don't know. There aren't too many people that I'd tell that I'd miss them if we were too permanently part ways.
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Old September 18 2013, 11:55 AM   #28
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

The nuSpock formula: Take a "Cage"-era Spock, more emotional and more vulnerable, and break him. He was pushed over the edge, exposed to traumas the likes of which Spock Prime never experienced. It makes perfect sense to me.

And remember, the elder and much more stable Spock Prime was "emotionally compromised" too - his voice is breaking when he tells Kirk this, and at the end of the mind meld Kirk has tears pouring down his face and has to take a moment to compose himself. Why? "Emotional tranferrence is an effect of the mind meld" - those tears are Spocks, hidden behind his Vulcan stoicism.
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Old September 18 2013, 01:39 PM   #29
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
I can understand that Kirk realizes the friendship there because of his mind meld with Spock(prime). But nuSpock has not been friends with Kirk long enough to have established such a strong meaningful bond.
So the strength of friendship is dictated first and foremost by how long you've been friends with someone? That's news to me.
Well sure it is.

You think a friendship that just got started is as meaningful and deep as one that has continued to develop over a lifetime of esperiences?
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Old September 18 2013, 02:12 PM   #30
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

When you click with someone? Yes it is.
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