RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,575
Posts: 5,423,567
Members: 24,810
Currently online: 412
Newest member: toaster

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12

New Wizkids Attack Wing Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Coto Drama Sold To Fox
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Braga Inks Deal
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Remastered Original Series Re-release
By: T'Bonz on Sep 11

UK Trek Ships Calendar Debuts
By: T'Bonz on Sep 10


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 17 2013, 07:06 AM   #166
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

MGagen wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
MGagen, is this the one you're referring to?
Perhaps, but it is incomplete. Here are a couple of details from the original:





As you'll note, the engineering section is actually labelled. Also, the hangar features more original detail. Finally, there is a legend that gives the precise coordinates for Engineering, Hangar Deck and Shuttlecraft Storage and Maintenence.

Notice especially that the deck in Engineering is called out as 2 feet lower than the hangar deck (which is on the centerline of the hull). One final item of note is the elliptical profile of the hangar doors. An interesting detail, that.

M.
Thanks. I've never seen the plans that clear before. Is there a full version in that LOD (level of detail) out there anywhere?
__________________
* * *
"If you wanted to get a good meeting... just go in and
say 'darker, grittier, sexier' and whatever."
—Glen Larson, 2010
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17 2013, 07:59 AM   #167
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

@ MGagen & Shaw

Many thanks for the details and clarifications, which literally put things into their proper perspectives.

Now it rather appears that Matt Jefferies did not like the VFX hangar model. Although the VFX model had only pairs of two windows in the observation corridors, Mr. Jefferies obviously preferred to have pairs of three.

It's also obvious that the engineering section is slightly ahead of the (yellow) bottom circle.
I just can't help but wonder where this now puts the engine room(s) of the TOS Enterprise.

According to "The Immunity Syndrome" and the alien entity's exit point in "Day of the Dove" (TOS without R) it would be ahead in the engineering hull's bow, according to the Phase II closeup detail it would be astern.

Good thing, then, that I visualized one engine room in each of these locations in my TOS deck plans to be on the safe side.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17 2013, 01:25 PM   #168
Mytran
Fleet Captain
 
Mytran's Avatar
 
Location: North Wales
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Finally got a chance today to check out this thread, and loving the revelations about the origin of the Shuttlebay render! It's great to have some new information about TOS come to light, even after all this time.

As for the Engine Room, it now seems very likely that the yellow hatch is strongly connected to the engine core. But if yellow signifies engineering ejection systems (or access), what about the yellow rectangle behind the bridge?
Mytran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17 2013, 02:00 PM   #169
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Perhaps yellow circle is different than yellow rectangle? Or it's not an ejection system but a hatch that covers engineering things like power transfer while in dock, fuel transfer, etc?
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17 2013, 04:08 PM   #170
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

I concur, it probably rather indicates "maintenance hatch" than "ejection" (though it doesn't exclude this possibility). You can have a yellow alert in spacedock, but I'd find a yellow "eject" while in spacedock rather unlikely.

Other yellow rectangles (saucer surface, starboard saucer underside) are probably personnel hatches. The yellow rectangle behind the bridge is a bit enigmatic. Either it's an access point for a docking tube in spacedock or something else.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17 2013, 05:28 PM   #171
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Now it rather appears that Matt Jefferies did not like the VFX hangar model. Although the VFX model had only pairs of two windows in the observation corridors, Mr. Jefferies obviously preferred to have pairs of three.
Mere speculation. It's more likely Jefferies was just working from his original drawings rather than trying to match the filming model.

The fact that everything in this hangar drawing is untapered also reinforces the argument that the sloped hangar drawings in TMOST are plans for a forced perspective model.

Finally, one thing that strikes me about all of Jefferies hangar drawings is that the "booths" are shaped just like the shuttlecraft hatch, even with lines that match the places the hatch doors split and where the windows are.
__________________
* * *
"If you wanted to get a good meeting... just go in and
say 'darker, grittier, sexier' and whatever."
—Glen Larson, 2010
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17 2013, 10:45 PM   #172
Praetor
Vice Admiral
 
Praetor's Avatar
 
Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Wow, MGagen, that sure is definitive! Thanks for sharing.

It seems to me that the Phase II version of the ship reflects an effort on Jefferies's part to revisit some of the concepts for the original ship and improve on them where he could. I think the second bridge turbolift is emblematic of this. Makes me wonder if we were to assume that the slightly altered saucer and secondary hull contours were "really" like that all along?
__________________
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q
Praetor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2013, 01:15 AM   #173
trevanian
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

^ I haven't read of any story treatments for IN THY IMAGE or TMP that don't include drydock and refit, so I think any changes were going to be covered under that heading, rather than pretending it always looked this different way.
trevanian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2013, 01:28 AM   #174
MGagen
Captain
 
MGagen's Avatar
 
Location: Crucis Court, Trans-Coal Sack Sector
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

I think it is pretty obvious that he treated the Phase II E as a true refit.

One of the clues is how closely the interior section view from TMOST matches the interior section of his Phase II ship. Even the turbo paths match. It has also made me wonder if there wasn't a large, detailed section view of the original ship in his possession when he drew the new one. I mean, he even plotted out the deck thicknesses and locations of various rooms. Is there still a TOS Jefferies cross section kicking around out there somewhere? What I wouldn't give for a look at that!

As for Maurice's question: I don't think a complete high resolution scan of the Phase II drawings have ever been released to the public.

M.
MGagen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2013, 10:19 AM   #175
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

MGagen wrote: View Post
Even the turbo paths match.
Is there a good explanation why everyone assumes these vertical structures to be turbo shafts?

Here is the basic Jefferies cross-section in color (schematic display on bridge). IMHO it's the different colors that make all the difference how to approximate a correct interpretation of Jefferies' black & white cross-section.

If these red vertical lines were turbo shafts than the bridge would actually have to be a turbo lift depot by that reasoning.

Also, there would be no horizontal turbo shafts aboard the ship by the same reasoning because these do not show up!

These rather look like main (power) lines (with smaller horizontal connections not shown) and though I'm not a big supporter of retroactive continuity, I think Andrew Probert is among the few who actually got it correct by placing a vertical intermix shaft there for the TMP Enterprise.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2013, 12:57 PM   #176
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Question about the Phase 2 drawing - why is the distance between the 442 and 450 marks greater than the 450 and 478 marks at the bottom?
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2013, 07:10 PM   #177
Shaw
Commodore
 
Shaw's Avatar
 
Location: Twin Cities
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Here is the basic Jefferies cross-section in color (schematic display on bridge). IMHO it's the different colors that make all the difference how to approximate a correct interpretation of Jefferies' black & white cross-section.
A quick review of the history of the Enterprise design…

Roddenberry had started Jefferies out designing a smaller version of the Enterprise at the end of the summer of 1964. Jefferies had put a ton of work into both plans for the miniatures and graphics that would end up on the bridge displays.

In mid October of 1964 Roddenbery changed his mind and asked for the Enterprise to be bigger (and have some more details). This had Jefferies scrambling just to finish the plans for the miniatures, and actually forced Datin to start construction on the 33 inch model using the plans for the smaller scale Enterprise with notations written on them of what not to build so he could get started.


The final plans of the Enterprise at the new scale were finished on November 7, 1964, after Datin had farmed out the construction of some of the parts for the 33 inch model… which is why the contours of the 33 inch model differ from the 11 foot model.

But the graphics on the bridge remained unchanged in The Cage and were never updated for the series. And they didn't need to be. Early in production people were watching the finished product as 35mm film, by the time they got to see what Star Trek looked like on actual TV sets they realized that they didn't need to worry as much about the smaller details. The turbolift graphic is one from before the Enterprise was rescaled, and wasn't intended to do anything other than sorta show where the bridge was and how it connected to the rest of the Enterprise via a turbolift.

The only cross section that Jefferies released was a small drawing (drawn on an 8.5 x 11 sheet) for the writers guides. And as MGagen pointed out, it matches up pretty nicely with what he drew for Phase II…




blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Question about the Phase 2 drawing - why is the distance between the 442 and 450 marks greater than the 450 and 478 marks at the bottom?
The 450 mark was misplaced… the other two are correct.
Shaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2013, 09:46 PM   #178
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Shaw wrote: View Post
The turbolift graphic is one from before the Enterprise was rescaled, and wasn't intended to do anything other than sorta show where the bridge was and how it connected to the rest of the Enterprise via a turbolift.
It stands to reason that the bridge was envisioned to be connected to a vertical turbo lift because a) of the cylinder at the exterior of the bridge on the VFX models and b) because there is an optional turbo lift spot on the Season One studio set blueprints at the end of the "Jefferies tube corridor" that would roughly match such a vertical turbo shaft - the only problem is that there is not one TOS episode that ever revealed one of these corridors to have a turbo lift access at this optional spot.

For all we know the casing of this vertical bridge turboshaft could have included all the power lines connecting the bridge and the upper dome to the one below.

Main power lines could split up into smaller and multiple horizontal lines, too small to be displayed on the schematic in the bridge alcove - a turbo lift can not!

If the vertical structures on the bridge alcove schematic (which does have a top view) are turbo lifts, than there are only four turbo shafts aboard he TOS Enterprise and our protagonists would have to walk to the next vertical shaft - which they apparently hardly ever do in TOS.

And it's somewhat odd that out of these four vertical turbo shafts, two are exclusively devoted to reach the nacelles, although we never saw that happening in any TOS episode, either.

In short, it's possible that Matt Jefferies originally envisioned these structures to be turbo shafts, but the actual turbo lift rides we saw suggest something completely different, IMO.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 02:52 AM   #179
MGagen
Captain
 
MGagen's Avatar
 
Location: Crucis Court, Trans-Coal Sack Sector
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

As Shaw pointed out, the bridge alcove diagram is of an earlier version of the ship. Do not place too much stock in it. As for why there are no horizontal turbo paths evident on the cross section in TMOST? The answer is simple: none of them fall along the centerline of the ship. The bridge turbo tube, as is evident from the outside of the model, IS on the center line.

Shaw,

Datin confirmed to me that both the small model and the eleven footer were constructed from the same plan. He told me the earlier version was what he quoted from, but it wasn't used during construction. I do not know why the contours came out so different between the models.

I also asked whether the blueprint had a flat underside around the bottom edge of the saucer, or whether it was a continuous curve, like the 11 footer. I never got a clear answer to that one.

M.
MGagen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 03:04 AM   #180
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Two things.

Are we ever going to see the original construction plans surface for us to drool over?

I'd love to see the original drawing (or a good reproduction) of the drawing(s) reprinted in The Making Of Star Trek, particularly the Enterprise cross-section.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:45 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.