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Old September 16 2013, 10:33 PM   #391
kirk55555
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote: View Post
kirk55555 wrote: View Post
I also didn't need to learn that Duncan really doesn't like gay people, that seems like the kind of fact that just makes Duncan seem like an unlikeable a-hole. Its not even like it was a throwaway comment, its a full conversation that just made me wonder what the point is. I guess it was more of FH's philosophy, but I just don't see the point. If it was philosophy, I'm not sure what side FH was trying to support, either.
I'd have to reread that, but I think part of it was that Duncan himself was heterosexual, and during his time with the Fremen, he internalized much of their culture and attitudes. Homosexuality/lesbianism were, to the Fremen, anathema. As in any tribal culture, people who refused to conform, refused to do their part in reproducing the next generation, were detrimental to the tribe's survival, and therefore were not to be tolerated.

As for FH's own opinions, who cares?
I don't really care, its just somethingthat came to mind while I was reading the book. I get the fremen thing, although I think Duncan's opinion was formed before the few months he spent with the fremen (he also made an ass of himself when it came to women soldiers, so I don't think it was his fremen experience that made him an ass).

Personally, I'm heterosexual but I think everyone has the right to be with whoever they want. It was just weird to see that section of God Emperor. I didn't remember that paticular topic ever coming up in the Dune books, so it kind of caught me off guard. It doesn't really effect my opinion of Duncan, he's just more of an ass than I remembered (I actually like Duncan, but God Emperor was definately not his finest hour). It was not a big deal, and when it comes to weird parts of the book I have more problem with Nayla and her climbing "excitement", its just something I didn't remember and that surprised me a bit.
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Old September 16 2013, 11:18 PM   #392
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Back in late '83 (about 6 months before the film came out) my wife and I were out shopping in a central Ohio mall when I saw two people dressing in robes.

"Look! Those are stillsuits!" I told her.

Sure enough, the movie company had a marketing campaign going before the release of the film.
Very innovative for the time.
(And considering the area, I was probably the only person in the mall who had any idea what it was about...)
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Old September 17 2013, 12:01 AM   #393
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
kirk55555 wrote: View Post
I also didn't need to learn that Duncan really doesn't like gay people, that seems like the kind of fact that just makes Duncan seem like an unlikeable a-hole. Its not even like it was a throwaway comment, its a full conversation that just made me wonder what the point is. I guess it was more of FH's philosophy, but I just don't see the point. If it was philosophy, I'm not sure what side FH was trying to support, either.
I'd have to reread that, but I think part of it was that Duncan himself was heterosexual, and during his time with the Fremen, he internalized much of their culture and attitudes. Homosexuality/lesbianism were, to the Fremen, anathema. As in any tribal culture, people who refused to conform, refused to do their part in reproducing the next generation, were detrimental to the tribe's survival, and therefore were not to be tolerated.

As for FH's own opinions, who cares?
I don't really care, its just somethingthat came to mind while I was reading the book. I get the fremen thing, although I think Duncan's opinion was formed before the few months he spent with the fremen (he also made an ass of himself when it came to women soldiers, so I don't think it was his fremen experience that made him an ass).

Personally, I'm heterosexual but I think everyone has the right to be with whoever they want. It was just weird to see that section of God Emperor. I didn't remember that paticular topic ever coming up in the Dune books, so it kind of caught me off guard. It doesn't really effect my opinion of Duncan, he's just more of an ass than I remembered (I actually like Duncan, but God Emperor was definately not his finest hour). It was not a big deal, and when it comes to weird parts of the book I have more problem with Nayla and her climbing "excitement", its just something I didn't remember and that surprised me a bit.
It's been a while since I'v read the book, but my recollection is that Duncan witnesses some Fish Speakers getting up to hanky panky and promptly freaks out. As for the author's views, I think Leto's reaction says it all. He's patiently amused by Duncan's attitude, asserting that it's perfectly natural and even citing Alexander the Great to dismiss any notion that homosexuals can't be effective soldiers.

In Duncan's defence, he's a product of his time and upbringing. Clearly, in 10,191 AG Imperium societal attitudes had swung back towards that sort of thing being an abhorrence, thank perhaps to the prevalence of OC Bible. Another more personal factor may have been some negative connotations associated with the Baron's tastes and perhaps Harkonnens in general.

Leto on the other hand was pre-born with Other Memory. With the total accumulated knowledge of his ancestors, any illusion any notion of an absolute morality was probably the first thing he lost.
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Old September 17 2013, 03:18 AM   #394
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

kirk55555 wrote:
Another thing I noticed is that Frank Herbert got really creepy a few times. I could have done with out the sex references
This isn't unique to Herbert. His whole generation of SF writers tends to be like this.
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Old September 17 2013, 03:31 AM   #395
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Yeah, if you want creepy sex stuff, check out Heinlein's later works. Not creepy in the sense that it's explicit....just generally creepy in a "free love carried a bit too far" kind of way. Herbert was decidedly mild by comparison.

Or then there's 'Brave New World' which very early on features a scene I won't even describe for fear of the internet police turning up. Suffice to say, if they ever try adapting that one to film again, you can file that scene under "unfilmable."
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Old September 17 2013, 04:02 AM   #396
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Set Harth wrote: View Post
kirk55555 wrote:
Another thing I noticed is that Frank Herbert got really creepy a few times. I could have done with out the sex references
This isn't unique to Herbert. His whole generation of SF writers tends to be like this.
Dune came out in the '60s, which was the era of the "Dangerous Visions" stories that Harlan Ellison edited. Science fiction novels were getting edgier, and some authors really pushed the boundaries. The original version of Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land wasn't published until relatively recently (not sure what year), because it was too risque for the '60s.

Reverend wrote: View Post
Yeah, if you want creepy sex stuff, check out Heinlein's later works. Not creepy in the sense that it's explicit....just generally creepy in a "free love carried a bit too far" kind of way. Herbert was decidedly mild by comparison.
What's creepy about multi-generational group marriage (Lazarus, Maureen, and Ira Johnson)?

Or then there's 'Brave New World' which very early on features a scene I won't even describe for fear of the internet police turning up. Suffice to say, if they ever try adapting that one to film again, you can file that scene under "unfilmable."
After seeing the Oz TV series (the prison show), I can't think of anything from Brave New World that would be unfilmable.
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Old September 17 2013, 10:10 AM   #397
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote: View Post
What's creepy about multi-generational group marriage (Lazarus, Maureen, and Ira Johnson)?
Besides the lengths gone to to genetically modify offspring so they can breed without fear of undesirable mutation? Nothing whatsoever.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
After seeing the Oz TV series (the prison show), I can't think of anything from Brave New World that would be unfilmable.
Really? How about a room full of 700 odd kindergarteners, sans garments...uh..."playing"? Pretty sure even HBO wouldn't go there!
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Old September 17 2013, 08:54 PM   #398
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Reverend wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
What's creepy about multi-generational group marriage (Lazarus, Maureen, and Ira Johnson)?
Besides the lengths gone to to genetically modify offspring so they can breed without fear of undesirable mutation? Nothing whatsoever.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
After seeing the Oz TV series (the prison show), I can't think of anything from Brave New World that would be unfilmable.
Really? How about a room full of 700 odd kindergarteners, sans garments...uh..."playing"? Pretty sure even HBO wouldn't go there!
Okay, it's obviously been too long since I last read that book...
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Old September 19 2013, 03:14 AM   #399
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Frank Herbert wrote:
I kept getting these telephone calls from people asking me if I were starting a cult.

The answer: “God no!”
"If someone asks you if you're starting a cult, you say YES!"
--L. Ron Hubbard by way of Ghostbusters
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Old September 19 2013, 03:31 AM   #400
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

There was already a SF-inspired cult going on around that time: the water-cult of Stranger in a Strange Land, when people went around "grokking" everything.
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Old September 19 2013, 06:45 AM   #401
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Not to mention Scientology.
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Old September 20 2013, 11:14 PM   #402
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Reverend wrote: View Post
Yeah, if you want creepy sex stuff, check out Heinlein's later works. "
Philip Jose Farmer too.
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Old September 20 2013, 11:41 PM   #403
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Isn't that the Riverworld bloke? If so I've never read his stuff based on the fact that I've seen two different adaptations of Riverworld and they were both rubbish. Not exactly fair I know, but they felt similar enough that I assumed they were faithful to the source material.
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Old September 23 2013, 11:10 PM   #404
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I'm reading Heretics of Dune. Its actually the one Dune book in the main series that I'm nsure I read it at one point, but I don't remember it at all (which is weird, because I remember atleast the main story of the rest of the books). Its pretty good, although I really wish it hadn't continued the disturbing trend of adding pointless sexual stuff to the book. That said, that kind of creepy stuff is basically what the Honored Matres are all about, so I'm not expecting that much of a change. Its not like its brought up that often, but it really takes me out of the book when sex stuff is brought up. Why is it important to read about Orade's sexual training and experiences? The answer is that it doesn't matter at all, and just serves to creep me out. When it has a point with the plot, like with the Honored Matres, then its fine. But much like Nayla's rope climbing fixation in God Emperor, the sexual stuff just sometimes gets brought up for no real reason, and its not to the books benefit. Also, the Tleilax parts have been a bit boring so far. Still, overall I'm liking it with this reread.
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Old September 24 2013, 03:18 PM   #405
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I'll tell you this: I'd rather read the weird sex stuff in the Dune books than the seemingly endless parade of rapes in the Song of Ice and Fire series.
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