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Old September 17 2013, 02:00 AM   #106
Crypto
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Gene Roddenberry created and produced Star Trek and its most popular representatives, i.e. TOS and TNG, so the "real" Star Trek comes down to the question "would he have approved".
That's just silly.

The "real" Star Trek is whatever I say it is. The "real" Star Trek for you is whatever you say it is. Any other opinion is just as valid for the author of that opinion.
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Old September 17 2013, 02:03 AM   #107
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Gene Roddenberry created and produced Star Trek and its most popular representatives, i.e. TOS and TNG, so the "real" Star Trek comes down to the question "would he have approved".
He had no problem cashing the checks.
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Old September 17 2013, 02:08 AM   #108
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Here's an interesting question: At what point does a popular fiction take on a life apart from its original creator?

Would Arthur Conan Doyle have approved of Watson being re-invented as a stylish Asian woman? Who knows?

Would Ian Fleming have approved of SKYFALL? I don't know and neither can anyone else.

Just the other day I was reading about a new lesbian production of "Romeo and Juliet." Would Shakespeare have approved? Possibly not, but that hardly means this particular interpretation is invalid . . . .

Ultimately, worrying about whether this or that version of STAR TREK counts as "real" doesn't seem terribly useful or interesting.
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Old September 17 2013, 03:52 AM   #109
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Gene Roddenberry created and produced Star Trek and its most popular representatives, i.e. TOS and TNG, so the "real" Star Trek comes down to the question "would he have approved".
He had no problem cashing the checks.
Gene was hardly unique in Hollywood in banking on preaching the evils of capitalism.
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Old September 17 2013, 04:19 AM   #110
Geoff Peterson
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Re: Not real Star Trek

R. Star wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Gene Roddenberry created and produced Star Trek and its most popular representatives, i.e. TOS and TNG, so the "real" Star Trek comes down to the question "would he have approved".
He had no problem cashing the checks.
Gene was hardly unique in Hollywood in banking on preaching the evils of capitalism.
Not the point I was making.
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Old September 17 2013, 06:04 AM   #111
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I was just referring to the fact that Roddenberry had nothing to do with DS9's creation, so we'll never know if he would have "approved" of it. And we know he wasn't entirely happy about losing control of the TOS movies, although I think most of us consider them "real" Trek.
But GR created TAS, Majel was working on it but later he decanonised it.

Also he was allegedly prepared to decanonise parts of TOS that he 'changed his mind about'/clashed with TNG. Do we see if he listed those episodes of TOS he later didn't want and declare them 'not real'?

So does Star Trek become less real if GR or CBS or Paramount changes its mind about what is canon. Isn't CBS supporting TAS now? Does that mean its become 'real Star Trek'
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Old September 17 2013, 07:36 AM   #112
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Re: Not real Star Trek

I hope TAS is real Star Trek now because there are dragons in it and I'm very fond of dragons.
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Old September 17 2013, 10:51 AM   #113
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
It's real trek if it is set in the Star Trek universe; alternative, spinoffs, reboots or otherwise. Still Trek. JJ Trek is set at a point in the Prime universe's past, thus JJ Trek is Star Trek.
You are describing a franchise where anything labeled "Star Trek" automatically becomes Star Trek and that would make the original question of this thread somewhat meaningless and redundant.

Gene Roddenberry created and produced Star Trek and its most popular representatives, i.e. TOS and TNG, so the "real" Star Trek comes down to the question "would he have approved".

If this line isn't drawn than Star Trek is anything someone wants it to be and becomes indistinguishable from Star Wars and other series and franchises and their distinct properties.

Bob
It's hard to determine whether Gene would have approved or not of JJ Trek. TOS had a darker vibe and far more character conflict than TNG and Gene created TOS. TNG was squeaky clean Star Trek because Gene wanted to minimize conflicts between main characters. Finally Gene greenlit the DS9 series having read the series bible and the story synopsis for the pilot episode. Gene must have known that DS9 would be far more edgier and conflict-ridden than TNG.

So since Gene Roddenberry's position changed so much on what he wanted from Star Trek, then it becomes rather irrelevant whether Gene would have approved of the JJ Trek films. We don't know and we will never know.

Bottom line is if its set in the prime universe or an offshoot of the prime universe (JJ Trek) it is Star Trek. Star Trek has gone through various phases, mostly good, some average and a few which were terrible. DS9 was ST's zenith and afterwards it went downhill.

The Star Trek 09' film was a nice renovation of Star Trek, primarily because of the visuals and the iconic imagery. STID was wasted potential of the JJ universe. It's kind of frustrating because it's the best the Star Trek universe has looked, yet STID kind of just partially rewound the promise of this new universe and these new characters. Hopefully the third film can rectify this!
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Old September 17 2013, 11:10 AM   #114
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Re: Not real Star Trek

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I was just referring to the fact that Roddenberry had nothing to do with DS9's creation, so we'll never know if he would have "approved" of it. And we know he wasn't entirely happy about losing control of the TOS movies, although I think most of us consider them "real" Trek.
But GR created TAS, Majel was working on it but later he decanonised it.

Also he was allegedly prepared to decanonise parts of TOS that he 'changed his mind about'/clashed with TNG. Do we see if he listed those episodes of TOS he later didn't want and declare them 'not real'?

So does Star Trek become less real if GR or CBS or Paramount changes its mind about what is canon. Isn't CBS supporting TAS now? Does that mean its become 'real Star Trek'
Gene Roddenberry himself described The Original Series as an inaccurate dramatisation of "real" events, in his novelization of The Motion Picture. In Admiral Kirk's forward, he writes...

Eventually, I found that I had been fictionalized into some sort of "modern Ulysses" and it has been painful to see my command decisions of those years so widely applauded [...] Nor have I ever been as foolishly courageous as depicted. I have never happily invited injury; I have disliked in the extreme every duty circumstace which has required me risk my life. But there appears to be something in the nature of depicters of popular events which leads them into the habit of exaggeration. As a result, I became determined that if I ever again found myself involved in an affair attracting public attention, I would insist that some way to tell the story more accurately.
(pages 7-8)

There you have it. The Motion Picture is a close depiction of what Trek's world is "really" like, The Original Series is foolish and exaggerated.
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Old September 17 2013, 11:27 AM   #115
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Exactly the way I see it. Trek started with TMP for me, and I imagine the original series with the design, tone and feel of TMP and TWOK.
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Old September 17 2013, 12:15 PM   #116
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Re: Not real Star Trek

teacake wrote: View Post
I hope TAS is real Star Trek now because there are dragons in it and I'm very fond of dragons.
Good point, me too.
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Old September 17 2013, 12:30 PM   #117
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Re: Not real Star Trek

To rebut Mr. Roddenberry, Cordwainer Bird .... .
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Old September 17 2013, 02:05 PM   #118
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Here's an interesting question: At what point does a popular fiction take on a life apart from its original creator?
The moment it squirts out of their pen/keyboard/stylus.
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Old September 17 2013, 02:22 PM   #119
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Gene Roddenberry created and produced Star Trek and its most popular representatives, i.e. TOS and TNG, so the "real" Star Trek comes down to the question "would he have approved".
That's just silly.

The "real" Star Trek is whatever I say it is. The "real" Star Trek for you is whatever you say it is. Any other opinion is just as valid for the author of that opinion.
This is exactly right.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Here's an interesting question: At what point does a popular fiction take on a life apart from its original creator?

Would Arthur Conan Doyle have approved of Watson being re-invented as a stylish Asian woman? Who knows?
Doesn't matter - I know I am, which confirms (to me anyway) what which Misfit Toy wrote above.
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Old September 17 2013, 02:38 PM   #120
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Re: Not real Star Trek

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Exactly the way I see it. Trek started with TMP for me, and I imagine the original series with the design, tone and feel of TMP and TWOK.
So you want something that looks like a person from Cheron?
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