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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 15 2013, 08:00 PM   #91
Chemahkuu
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Wasn't Ln X the self-proclaimed "astute viewer" of Star Trek?
So he claimed.
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Old September 15 2013, 08:05 PM   #92
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Wasn't Ln X the self-proclaimed "astute viewer" of Star Trek?
So he claimed.
I've seen all of TNG, DS9 and VOY plus parts of TOS and ENT. I've seen all the Trek movies when I was younger but most of the Trek movies I watched the most was TUC and all of the TNG films.
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Old September 15 2013, 08:19 PM   #93
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Ln X wrote: View Post
I've seen all of TNG, DS9 and VOY plus parts of TOS and ENT. I've seen all the Trek movies when I was younger but most of the Trek movies I watched the most was TUC and all of the TNG films.
So you admit then, when you dispute any comparisons between the plot-logic of STiD and TWOK that you're basically posting from a position of ignorance?

It's perfectly fine to not have seen all the films. But you implied a stronger knowledge of the TOS films than you now claim to have all in the spirit of attacking others. That's a bit disingenuous don't you think?
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Old September 15 2013, 08:29 PM   #94
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
...self-proclaimed "astute viewer" of Star Trek?
"Astute" is just a speedier way to say "ass toot".
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Old September 15 2013, 08:40 PM   #95
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
I've seen all of TNG, DS9 and VOY plus parts of TOS and ENT. I've seen all the Trek movies when I was younger but most of the Trek movies I watched the most was TUC and all of the TNG films.
So you admit then, when you dispute any comparisons between the plot-logic of STiD and TWOK that you're basically posting from a position of ignorance?

It's perfectly fine to not have seen all the films. But you implied a stronger knowledge of the TOS films than you now claim to have all in the spirit of attacking others. That's a bit disingenuous don't you think?
I have seen all the Trek films and I'm making general comparisons. I've got the story synopsis on Memory Alpha to check some of the finer nuances and Trek Core to watch particular scenes we are all discussing about.

I don't make any claim to saying that I know TOS inside out, not at all. TNG, DS9 and VOY I do know inside out especially DS9, but I've seen enough TOS and read enough story synopsis to get by.

But I always avoid trying to compare the main characters from TOS with the main characters of NuTrek. Because of the altered timeline (and technically it's an alternate universe if you consider the various cosmetic changes) I feel NuTrek characters are unique. Thus for me I find it is hard to ascribe traits and ones knowledge of the TOS characters onto the NuTrek characters.

So it's kind of like a clean slate and what we know about the NuTrek characters stems from strictly the NuTrek films because of this altered timeline. I feel its important to appreciate this. For example I've watched Star Trek 09 several times and every time I got to the bit where NuKirk is promoted I thought it made sense because this is Kirk we're talking about!

But I've recently realised my mistake because what I was thinking of was TOS Kirk. NuKirk is a clean slate and so because of that I had no choice but to more thoroughly examine why NuKirk was promoted. Which means teasing over the premise (altered timeline and so forth). This also means that STID has got to validate the NuTrek premise and, hopefully, try to fill in -- to the best of its ability -- any cracks to the premise.
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Old September 15 2013, 09:16 PM   #96
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Mountie1988 wrote: View Post
bullethead wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post

It's the K'normian trading ship that ends up violating Klingon territorial boundaries, not the Enterprise. According to the dialogue in the film the Enterprise was stopped in the Neutral Zone.
Are you sure, because the movie sure makes it seem like the Enterprise is orbiting Qo'nos/Kronos, since we never see the K'normian ship go to warp or any other indication that the planet isn't Qo'nos/Kronos.

(BTW, which spelling are going with in this forum?)
Ja, first I thought so myself. But I later realized they were nowhere near Kronos, they only augmented a picture of Qu'ono's on their viewscreen and that stellar body you could see near the Enterprise was the little moon where Bones and Carol opened the torpedo
Okay, I've taken a look at the scene where the K'normian ship flies to Kronos and here's what I think happens, based on my knowledge of film editing:


Based on the rules of cinema about preserving the direction of motion and using editing to keep the audience aware of what's going on, it's highly probable that the planet is intended to be Kronos. So that means the Enterprise is literally inside Klingon space unless Kronos' orbit takes it really close to the Klingon edge of the Neutral Zone.
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Old September 15 2013, 09:24 PM   #97
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Not a plot hole per se, but... Having just seen Space Seed again, how about the part where TWOK completely ditched the seed part out of Space Seed, and instead of letting Khan's populate Ceti Alpha V, used him as a device to fill a single plot for a single film? That alone is a truck of outrage STID shares no part in.

Aaand.... Now that Khan is alive in the new timeline, they could give him a planet and explore that in a TNG reboot series as it was always intended!
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Old September 15 2013, 09:49 PM   #98
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

bullethead wrote: View Post
Mountie1988 wrote: View Post
bullethead wrote: View Post
Are you sure, because the movie sure makes it seem like the Enterprise is orbiting Qo'nos/Kronos, since we never see the K'normian ship go to warp or any other indication that the planet isn't Qo'nos/Kronos.

(BTW, which spelling are going with in this forum?)
Ja, first I thought so myself. But I later realized they were nowhere near Kronos, they only augmented a picture of Qu'ono's on their viewscreen and that stellar body you could see near the Enterprise was the little moon where Bones and Carol opened the torpedo
Okay, I've taken a look at the scene where the K'normian ship flies to Kronos and here's what I think happens, based on my knowledge of film editing:


Based on the rules of cinema about preserving the direction of motion and using editing to keep the audience aware of what's going on, it's highly probable that the planet is intended to be Kronos. So that means the Enterprise is literally inside Klingon space unless Kronos' orbit takes it really close to the Klingon edge of the Neutral Zone.
Here's you problem: The movie directly states that they are on the edge of the Neutral Zone. So it doesn't matter what you think the visual shows, the movie flat out states that they're on the edge when Marcus shows up.
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Old September 15 2013, 09:52 PM   #99
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Mountie1988 wrote: View Post
Well, you guys have successfully pointed out all what is wrong with Into Darkness and therefore why it is the worst of all Star Trek movies.
But here's the thing: STID is not the first ST movie with major plot holes, so is it really worse than its predecessors? We'll see

This thread is dedicated to all the screw-ups in previous Star Trek movies, just to relativize STID's script.

Let's begin with two holy cows...



Star Trek: First Contact
The TNG crew monitors the Romulan Neutral Zone, then agrees to disobey orders and get involved with the Borg after the battle at 001 already has started, but manages to arrive in time while it still lasts. That's what I call Transwarp Drive Baby.

Well if you listen to the radio chatter about the battle there is a call for re-enforcements. So you could say that they were answering a distress call. i.e. we are getting beaten here and heed help.
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Old September 15 2013, 09:57 PM   #100
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Mountie1988 wrote: View Post
Well, you guys have successfully pointed out all what is wrong with Into Darkness and therefore why it is the worst of all Star Trek movies.
But here's the thing: STID is not the first ST movie with major plot holes, so is it really worse than its predecessors? We'll see

This thread is dedicated to all the screw-ups in previous Star Trek movies, just to relativize STID's script.

Let's begin with two holy cows...



Star Trek: First Contact
The TNG crew monitors the Romulan Neutral Zone, then agrees to disobey orders and get involved with the Borg after the battle at 001 already has started, but manages to arrive in time while it still lasts. That's what I call Transwarp Drive Baby.

Well if you listen to the radio chatter about the battle there is a call for re-enforcements. So you could say that they were answering a distress call. i.e. we are getting beaten here and heed help.
Hell, I'd say letting Picard retain command of the Enterprise after the events of BoBW was a plot hole going all the way back to TNG. He was compromised by the enemy, whether under the Borg's control or not, he led the assault on Earth, and was allowed to retain command of the flagship--that's just fucking stupid right there.
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Old September 15 2013, 10:07 PM   #101
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Hell, I'd say letting Picard retain command of the Enterprise after the events of BoBW was a plot hole going all the way back to TNG. He was compromised by the enemy, whether under the Borg's control or not, he led the assault on Earth, and was allowed to retain command of the flagship--that's just fucking stupid right there.
Didn't MythBusters confirm it that if you put a Star Trek collection at the bottom of the ocean, all the water would get drained through the plot holes?
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Old September 16 2013, 12:14 AM   #102
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

YellowSubmarine wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Hell, I'd say letting Picard retain command of the Enterprise after the events of BoBW was a plot hole going all the way back to TNG. He was compromised by the enemy, whether under the Borg's control or not, he led the assault on Earth, and was allowed to retain command of the flagship--that's just fucking stupid right there.
Didn't MythBusters confirm it that if you put a Star Trek collection at the bottom of the ocean, all the water would get drained through the plot holes?


No, but they DID bust Kirk's battle with the Gorn in TOS, specifically the makeshift mortar.
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Old September 16 2013, 01:18 AM   #103
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Franklin wrote: View Post
If there's any explanation at all for not beaming up Kirk that has an ounce of credibility, I'd say it was Khan's growing increasingly irrational as the movie goes on. Hell, he didn't even really strand him. How could he even think he did? Kirk wasn't missing. Everyone knew where he was. He was beamed there from the Enterprise, for crying out loud.

No. He was beamed to Regula One with McCoy and Saavik. Nobody on the Enterprise knew about the underground base on the planetoid. Spock, Bones, and Kirk saw the tape, yes, but it was Kirk alone who put two-and-two together when they were in the transporter room.

So, If Khan destroys The Enterprise (remember, they haven't gotten out of jamming range by this point, so Starfleet has no freaking idea what's going on) nobody will know that Kirk is alive, or even where to look for him. Genesis was a civilian project. All the information about it was on Regula One.

I get the point being made here people. All Star Trek movies have plot holes, even the best, but that scene with Khan is not one of them.
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Old September 16 2013, 01:53 AM   #104
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

OK I liked STID so I'm not being a hater but I really can't understand the whole business of the 72 missiles.
1. Why would Marcus (if he knew) let the 72 other augments (possibly valuable weapons) out of his hands into Kirks? There's just too much chance IMO that Kirk isn't going to fire all 72 missiles, that Kirk's ship will be captured by the Klingons, that Khan will get access. I'm not even saying this in hindsight.
2.Targetting - presumably these 'special' long range missiles are being used because basically the Enterprise is going to be light years away from their target. Then how are they going to aim? How can they be sure that Khan will be hit? Were they just going to hit the backside of the planet and hope for the best?
3. When Kirk told Khan that he was going to try to capture him (why oh why would you do that?) did he just broadcastit to the entire planet. Bombard every radio station or what - can they broadcast to the wind?

I'd appreciate any real or fanboy explanations.
The rest of the 'plotholes' I can live with.
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Old September 16 2013, 02:18 AM   #105
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

1. Marcus was banking on grief and emotion as far as Kirk was concerned.

2. Honestly I have no idea. The torpedo thing has a lot of goofy elements to it. Scotty's whole "I CANNA LET EM DO EET CAPN CUZ I DUN NO DA FEEUELL..." Yeah, you do. You called it a Photon Torpedo. It's antimatter you mad-drunk bastard.

3. I don't recall Kirk telling Khan he was going to capture him? Are you referring to when Sulu told him to 'surrender or we'll blow you up' ? Because i'd wager that was done a narrow-beam transmission of some sort.
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