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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 15 2013, 04:58 PM   #76
Franklin
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post

Oh, but he just wished to go on... hurting him.
Kirk buried alive in a dead planet should do the trick, naturally Khan wish he could do more but he settled for that.
But the point is, Khan didn't have to settle for that. There was absolutely no reason he couldn't beam up Kirk as he had just beamed up Genesis fifteen-seconds earlier.

Khan didn't beam up Kirk because it would've stopped the movie dead in its tracks by having Khan snap Kirk's neck.
Just butting in to say that given Khan's preference in STID, it's more likely Khan would've crushed Kirk's skull than snapped his neck.

If there's any explanation at all for not beaming up Kirk that has an ounce of credibility, I'd say it was Khan's growing increasingly irrational as the movie goes on. Hell, he didn't even really strand him. How could he even think he did? Kirk wasn't missing. Everyone knew where he was. He was beamed there from the Enterprise, for crying out loud.
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Old September 15 2013, 05:08 PM   #77
M'Sharak
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Ln X wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I can understand some disagreements on the perceived qualities of the various iterations of Trek. But it's starting to get out of hand. It feels like some folks are coming to this forum just for the chance to pick a fight.

I'm not a huge fan of Deep Space Nine, Voyager and Enterprise but I don't feel the need to rush into those forums and take a dump on something other people obviously enjoy.

It's starting to feel mean-spirited and I really think that is sad.
The problem is that every Star Trek fan -- irrespective of what series he likes -- watches the movies. The reason why this STID division is bigger than most is because it ain't a clash of different ST, it's a clash of quality or even the Star Wars vs Star Trek argument.

The first group appears rather happy with what is a rather average, at best, movie. While the second group sees STID for what it is and is one more Star Trek film running on vapours. The same kind of vapours which had Nemisis, VOY and ENT limping along.

I think the biggest point of contention is that STID suffers from this post-millennial malaise where films pass muster with alright characters, a threadbare plot and some decent action scenes. But older films have done such things in a far better way and Star Trek is not supposed to be Star Wars. There is something more fundamentally amiss with STID which is far bigger than the potential problem being a different series, a different cast or something.

Finally to SeerSGB. You are absolutely right about the fact that if you think really hard you can rip any Trek film to pieces and find like several or so major plot holes. But why not tally up all the plotholes in STID, I bet the final number would be greater than either Star Trek V, Insurrection or Nemesis!
And only a few posts up, I asked that people (including you, by name) stop taking pokes at groups of fans for enjoying something which you may not have enjoyed. You now have a warning for trolling; comments to PM, please.


EDIT:

And BillJ...
BillJ wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
The first group appears rather happy with what is a rather average, at best, movie. While the second group sees STID for what it is and is one more Star Trek film running on vapours. The same kind of vapours which had Nemesis, VOY and ENT limping along.
Oh Lordy, Lordy!!! I've finally seen the light!!! How could I possibly enjoy something that I find fun and exciting!!! I've been following the false Trek prophet Abrams and am now seeking absolution!!!

What a fucking joke.

Why are you and others so damned convinced we don't know what we like? How is a pair of movies that are thought of highly by viewers and just produced the highest-grossing installment in the franchises history, running on vapors?

<snip>
Don't be quite so quick to take the bait. Try just ignoring it for a while.
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Last edited by M'Sharak; September 15 2013 at 05:14 PM. Reason: additional content
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Old September 15 2013, 06:33 PM   #78
Mountie1988
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

bullethead wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
bullethead wrote:
Then comes the Enterprise violating Klingon territorial boundaries (despite its orders to stop in the Neutral Zone, unless the Neutral Zone is within Qo’nos/Kronos’ solar system) without being detected by anything.
It's the K'normian trading ship that ends up violating Klingon territorial boundaries, not the Enterprise. According to the dialogue in the film the Enterprise was stopped in the Neutral Zone.
Are you sure, because the movie sure makes it seem like the Enterprise is orbiting Qo'nos/Kronos, since we never see the K'normian ship go to warp or any other indication that the planet isn't Qo'nos/Kronos.

(BTW, which spelling are going with in this forum?)
Ja, first I thought so myself. But I later realized they were nowhere near Kronos, they only augmented a picture of Qu'ono's on their viewscreen and that stellar body you could see near the Enterprise was the little moon where Bones and Carol opened the torpedo
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Old September 15 2013, 06:35 PM   #79
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Mountie1988 wrote: View Post
bullethead wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post

It's the K'normian trading ship that ends up violating Klingon territorial boundaries, not the Enterprise. According to the dialogue in the film the Enterprise was stopped in the Neutral Zone.
Are you sure, because the movie sure makes it seem like the Enterprise is orbiting Qo'nos/Kronos, since we never see the K'normian ship go to warp or any other indication that the planet isn't Qo'nos/Kronos.

(BTW, which spelling are going with in this forum?)
Ja, first I thought so myself. But I later realized they were nowhere near Kronos, they only augmented a picture of Qu'ono's on their viewscreen and that stellar body you could see near the Enterprise was the little moon where Bones and Carol opened the torpedo
Marcus made it clear they were supposed to hang on the outside of the edge of the Neutral Zone and fire the advanced torpedoes at Khan. That was the whole point, the torps were meant to be long range, untraceable, super torpedoes.

Just rewatched the scene: Kirk tells Marcus that they're on the edge of the Neutral Zone.
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Old September 15 2013, 06:59 PM   #80
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Interesting note about Enterprise falling to earth:

Right before, Spock warns the crew to brace for a shock wave from the exploding torpedoes he beamed over to Vengeance.

Could it be, perhaps, it was that shock wave that pushed Enterprise into earth's gravity well causing her into free fall?

Also, did Vengeance crash, or did Khan directly aim Vengeance into earth's atmosphere? It wasn't careening out of control when we see it fly past Enterprise on it's way toward SF. It was taking a straight shot down.
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Old September 15 2013, 07:00 PM   #81
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Opus wrote: View Post
Interesting note about Enterprise falling to earth:

Right before, Spock warns the crew to brace for a shock wave from the exploding torpedoes he beamed over to Vengeance.

Could it be, perhaps, that shock wave that pushed Enterprise into earth's gravity well causing her into free fall?

Also, did Vengeance crash, or did Khan directly aim Vengeance into earth's atmosphere? It wasn't careening out of control when we see it fly past Enterprise on it's way toward SF. It was taking a straight shot down.
The impulse engines were also online. Even if they were dying, just that little extra push would have been enough to tip her over the the edge.
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Old September 15 2013, 07:19 PM   #82
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Just rewatched the scene: Kirk tells Marcus that they're on the edge of the Neutral Zone.
Is this the Romulan Neutral Zone or the neutral zone between the Federations and Klingons? I have never heard that phrase be used before to describe the buffer zone between Federation and Klingon territory.
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Old September 15 2013, 07:23 PM   #83
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Ln X wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Just rewatched the scene: Kirk tells Marcus that they're on the edge of the Neutral Zone.
Is this the Romulan Neutral Zone or the neutral zone between the Federations and Klingons? I have never heard that phrase be used before to describe the buffer zone between Federation and Klingon territory.
So you've never watched TWOK then?
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Old September 15 2013, 07:25 PM   #84
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Ln X wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Just rewatched the scene: Kirk tells Marcus that they're on the edge of the Neutral Zone.
Is this the Romulan Neutral Zone or the neutral zone between the Federations and Klingons? I have never heard that phrase be used before to describe the buffer zone between Federation and Klingon territory.
It was used in The Wrath of Khan during the Kobayashi Maru test.
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Old September 15 2013, 07:35 PM   #85
Mountie1988
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Opus wrote: View Post
Interesting note about Enterprise falling to earth:

Right before, Spock warns the crew to brace for a shock wave from the exploding torpedoes he beamed over to Vengeance.

Could it be, perhaps, it was that shock wave that pushed Enterprise into earth's gravity well causing her into free fall?

Also, did Vengeance crash, or did Khan directly aim Vengeance into earth's atmosphere? It wasn't careening out of control when we see it fly past Enterprise on it's way toward SF. It was taking a straight shot down.
Right. Why hasn't anyone thought of that before?
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Old September 15 2013, 07:35 PM   #86
SeerSGB
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Just rewatched the scene: Kirk tells Marcus that they're on the edge of the Neutral Zone.
Is this the Romulan Neutral Zone or the neutral zone between the Federations and Klingons? I have never heard that phrase be used before to describe the buffer zone between Federation and Klingon territory.
It was used in The Wrath of Khan during the Kobayashi Maru test.
Star Trek VI too, when Sulu was ordered to obey the treaty and stay outside the Neutral Zone.
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Old September 15 2013, 07:37 PM   #87
Chemahkuu
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Mountie1988 wrote: View Post
Opus wrote: View Post
Interesting note about Enterprise falling to earth:

Right before, Spock warns the crew to brace for a shock wave from the exploding torpedoes he beamed over to Vengeance.

Could it be, perhaps, it was that shock wave that pushed Enterprise into earth's gravity well causing her into free fall?

Also, did Vengeance crash, or did Khan directly aim Vengeance into earth's atmosphere? It wasn't careening out of control when we see it fly past Enterprise on it's way toward SF. It was taking a straight shot down.
Right. Why hasn't anyone thought of that before?
They have, and that if you watch, the Vengeances last few phaser and torpedo impacts are hitting one side of the ship and shoving her in that direction, the Enterprise was under the influence of several kinetic forces, none of which she had the power to stop.
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Old September 15 2013, 07:38 PM   #88
Mountie1988
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Just rewatched the scene: Kirk tells Marcus that they're on the edge of the Neutral Zone.
Is this the Romulan Neutral Zone or the neutral zone between the Federations and Klingons? I have never heard that phrase be used before to describe the buffer zone between Federation and Klingon territory.
It was used in The Wrath of Khan during the Kobayashi Maru test.
And in The Search for Spock, The Voyage Home, The Final Frontier and twice in The Undiscovered Country.
Man, you have to watch your Star Trek.
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Old September 15 2013, 07:42 PM   #89
Mountie1988
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
Mountie1988 wrote: View Post
Opus wrote: View Post
Interesting note about Enterprise falling to earth:

Right before, Spock warns the crew to brace for a shock wave from the exploding torpedoes he beamed over to Vengeance.

Could it be, perhaps, it was that shock wave that pushed Enterprise into earth's gravity well causing her into free fall?

Also, did Vengeance crash, or did Khan directly aim Vengeance into earth's atmosphere? It wasn't careening out of control when we see it fly past Enterprise on it's way toward SF. It was taking a straight shot down.
Right. Why hasn't anyone thought of that before?
They have, and that if you watch, the Vengeances last few phaser and torpedo impacts are hitting one side of the ship and shoving her in that direction, the Enterprise was under the influence of several kinetic forces, none of which she had the power to stop.
I feel like we have wronged STID. A new thread should be installed solely to explain and justify wannabee-plotholes
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Old September 15 2013, 07:55 PM   #90
CorporalClegg
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Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Mountie1988 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post

Is this the Romulan Neutral Zone or the neutral zone between the Federations and Klingons? I have never heard that phrase be used before to describe the buffer zone between Federation and Klingon territory.
It was used in The Wrath of Khan during the Kobayashi Maru test.
And in The Search for Spock, The Voyage Home, The Final Frontier and twice in The Undiscovered Country.
Man, you have to watch your Star Trek.
Wasn't Ln X the self-proclaimed "astute viewer" of Star Trek?
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