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Old September 15 2013, 11:13 AM   #46
Robert Comsol
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Re: Not real Star Trek

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
For me 'real' Star Trek:

1. Must adhere to Roddenberry-esque principles. Each episode should have a 'moral' [however light/heavy], the show should be a vessel for a look at the Human Condition & ponderings on ethics, morality and general philosophy. Generally, the show should encourage us to be as good as we can be while growing and learning.

2. It must NOT be simply about action. Violence is the last resort, least preferred method. ... A barfight and a sabotage campaign are all intrinsic to plot: there are dozens of TOS episodes where Kirk specifically tries to resolve problems without resorting to violence or at least shows remorse at the necessity. Its easy to point to two examples and scream 'OMFG VIOENCE!' but centering entire plots around it, simply for the sake of it, is not Star Trek and I do not think TOS really had that problem.
Exactly how I feel about it, very well said.

Bob
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Old September 15 2013, 11:48 AM   #47
teacake
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Re: Not real Star Trek

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
Roddenberry-esque.
Thank the gods of good television that there were more people in charge of these stories than Gene.
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Old September 15 2013, 12:20 PM   #48
F. King Daniel
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Re: Not real Star Trek

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
For me 'real' Star Trek:

1. Must adhere to Roddenberry-esque principles. Each episode should have a 'moral' [however light/heavy], the show should be a vessel for a look at the Human Condition & ponderings on ethics, morality and general philosophy. Generally, the show should encourage us to be as good as we can be while growing and learning.
Isn't that what Into Darkness was? Kirk's decision not to execute Khan from afar (also a statement about the US' current warfare tactics) qualifies. His speech at the end spells it out:

There will always be those who mean to do us harm. To stop them, we risk awakening the same evil within ourselves. Our first instinct is to seek revenge when those we love are taken from us, but that's not who we are.
2. It must NOT be simply about action. Violence is the last resort, least preferred method. It must not be overtly sexual or gratuitous.
Violence:

-Extended torture scenes in "The Empath"

-Torture in "Patterns of Force"

-Wrath of Khan, the Ceti Eel torture sequence

-Picard's degridation and torture in "Chains of Command"

-Close-up detail shots of crew mutilations by the Borg in First Contact.

-Archer's airlock torture of a pirate, and later his pirate attack on a defenceless vessel during Enterprise's third season.

-Conspiracy, Remmick's entirely unnecessary exploding head. Note that in comparison, Into Darkness never actually showed Admiral Marcus' head beind destroyed by Khan, nor any detail on Carol's broken leg.

Sex:

-Beverly writhing in pleasure in "Sub Rosa"

-DS9's mirror universe, which turned almost every female into lipstick lesbian or (in Kira's case) a permanently horny bisexual.

-Voyager, with Seven of Nine's unnecessary catsuit.

-Enterprise, with it's infamous decon chamber scenes, T'Pol's Pon Farr, T'Pol and Trip's massage sequences, T'Pol's bare ass, T'Pol and Hoshi being seduced by a Xindi agent, which featured much unnecessary groping.
So, for my rules....

TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY & ENT and movies I-X are 'real Star Trek'.

JJ is producing a shallow, soulless version of Trek necromancy in my opinion.
By your own rules, how is that so? Do you ignore the things I have cited above?
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Old September 15 2013, 12:37 PM   #49
Isolinear
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Re: Not real Star Trek

teacake wrote: View Post
Thank the gods of good television that there were more people in charge of these stories than Gene.
Glad I'm not the only one. I don't get the blind Roddenberry-ideals worship. Yes, it's part of Star Trek, but for me it doesn't define it.

To me, Star Trek is any good SF story that fits in the greater Star Trek-universe that came before.

Is nuTrek real Trek? Yyyes.....but only just. It's very "style over substance", when it should be the opposite.
And wiping out the Prime-universe timeline still doesn't feel right. (yes, I know they say the old timeline still exists.)
Oh well, I guess I'm still in the Bargaining stage. I will reach Acceptance eventually

Also, I don't consider the Videogames and Novels real Trek. (I never read novels based on TV-shows or Movies. Feels too much like a cheap money grab to be worth my time.)
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Old September 15 2013, 12:59 PM   #50
TheGoodStuff
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Re: Not real Star Trek

I love how many of you are totally overlooking the point. I now have 'Daniel' listing scenes where there was a bit of violence.

I did not say there should be NO violence or titilation, thats absurd. To quote...myself "It must not simply be about..."

Hell, DS9 is my favourite and there are plenty of battles that are epic: however that booms and explosions were not simply the be-all end-all of the show. People died, people were injured and the consequences and ethics of those conflicts were explored.

Sure Voyager had a catsuit, but Jeri Ryan was a fantastic actor and she had numerous fantastic episodes. The sexualisation is forgivable.


Also, im not worshiping Roddenberry, that is also absurd. What I appreciate though is the enlightened humanity, the peaceful future....the themes he installed into the show along with many others.
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Old September 15 2013, 01:09 PM   #51
teacake
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Re: Not real Star Trek

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
I love how many of you are totally overlooking the point. I now have 'Daniel' listing scenes where there was a bit of violence.
Hey I was traumatized by The Empath. Don't knock my pain. That stuff was freaking awful.
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Old September 15 2013, 01:19 PM   #52
F. King Daniel
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Re: Not real Star Trek

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
I love how many of you are totally overlooking the point. I now have 'Daniel' listing scenes where there was a bit of violence.

I did not say there should be NO violence or titilation, thats absurd. To quote...myself "It must not simply be about..."

Hell, DS9 is my favourite and there are plenty of battles that are epic: however that booms and explosions were not simply the be-all end-all of the show. People died, people were injured and the consequences and ethics of those conflicts were explored.

Sure Voyager had a catsuit, but Jeri Ryan was a fantastic actor and she had numerous fantastic episodes. The sexualisation is forgivable.


Also, im not worshiping Roddenberry, that is also absurd. What I appreciate though is the enlightened humanity, the peaceful future....the themes he installed into the show along with many others.
And there go the goalposts. Note also how you ignore the themes of Into Darkness.

Wormhole's assesment would appear to be the true one:
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
If I like it, it's real Star Trek. If I don't like it, it's not real Star Trek.
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Old September 15 2013, 01:23 PM   #53
Isolinear
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Re: Not real Star Trek

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Wormhole's assesment would appear to be the true one:
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
If I like it, it's real Star Trek. If I don't like it, it's not real Star Trek.
By that definition, Galaxy Quest is a better Star Trek movie than Insurrection and Nemesis combined. (It really is)
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Old September 15 2013, 01:51 PM   #54
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Not real Star Trek

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
I love how many of you are totally overlooking the point. I now have 'Daniel' listing scenes where there was a bit of violence.

I did not say there should be NO violence or titilation, thats absurd. To quote...myself "It must not simply be about..."

Hell, DS9 is my favourite and there are plenty of battles that are epic: however that booms and explosions were not simply the be-all end-all of the show. People died, people were injured and the consequences and ethics of those conflicts were explored.

Sure Voyager had a catsuit, but Jeri Ryan was a fantastic actor and she had numerous fantastic episodes. The sexualisation is forgivable.


Also, im not worshiping Roddenberry, that is also absurd. What I appreciate though is the enlightened humanity, the peaceful future....the themes he installed into the show along with many others.
And there go the goalposts. Note also how you ignore the themes of Into Darkness.
There's a good chance that every anti-war movie will also be a good war movie: it needs to convey something about the experience of war in order to make its point. However, it's still possible to make distinctions between the two genres based on how the violence is presented and contextualized, whether it emphasizes style, action, or futility.

The fact that X number of other episode or films in the franchise have violence does not render them all the same: that moral equivalency doesn't hold. TheGoodStuff has every right to analyze the different films and episodes for how they present violence and use them to advance their narrative. And I think it's perfectly arguable that STID presents a voyeurism with respect to violent death that far exceeds what was shown previously in the franchise.
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Old September 15 2013, 02:36 PM   #55
Robert Comsol
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Re: Not real Star Trek

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Violence:

-Extended torture scenes in "The Empath"
-Torture in "Patterns of Force"
-Wrath of Khan, the Ceti Eel torture sequence
-Picard's degridation and torture in "Chains of Command"
-Close-up detail shots of crew mutilations by the Borg in First Contact.
That's violence inflicted upon our protagonists. But wasn't the point that our protagonists only use violent means as a last resort?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
-Conspiracy, Remmick's entirely unnecessary exploding head.
You got a point here. However this example (and "The Man Trap" from TOS) rather strikes me as the proverbial exception from the rule and is most definitely not a Roddenberry Star Trek trademark unless you want to violently force the issue.

Star Trek was not about "turning the other cheek" but this "eye for an eye" retribution theme that somehow started with ST II is not what Roddenberry had in mind, IMHO.

After all it's not putting an end to conflicts but just prolongs these indefinitely (as it does in our real world).

Bob
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Old September 15 2013, 02:36 PM   #56
RandyS
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Re: Not real Star Trek

teacake wrote: View Post
TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
I love how many of you are totally overlooking the point. I now have 'Daniel' listing scenes where there was a bit of violence.
Hey I was traumatized by The Empath. Don't knock my pain. That stuff was freaking awful.
Please. The Empath was tame compared to the sadistic shit seen on TV today.

Ever see a little show called Battlestar Galactica? Not the good 1978 version, I'm talking about Ron Moore's shitfest now. A show that cannot be put down or hated enough.

The Empath was a lighthearted fantasy compared to that evil garbage.
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Old September 15 2013, 02:51 PM   #57
Opus
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Re: Not real Star Trek

As a kid growing up in the 70s, I would skip The Empath when it came on. For that time and age, it was brutal.
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Old September 15 2013, 02:56 PM   #58
Opus
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Violence:

-Extended torture scenes in "The Empath"
-Torture in "Patterns of Force"
-Wrath of Khan, the Ceti Eel torture sequence
-Picard's degridation and torture in "Chains of Command"
-Close-up detail shots of crew mutilations by the Borg in First Contact.
That's violence inflicted upon our protagonists.
Ohhhh... There's such a fine line between stupid and, uh... clever...

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Old September 15 2013, 03:45 PM   #59
Smellmet
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
I love how many of you are totally overlooking the point. I now have 'Daniel' listing scenes where there was a bit of violence.

I did not say there should be NO violence or titilation, thats absurd. To quote...myself "It must not simply be about..."

Hell, DS9 is my favourite and there are plenty of battles that are epic: however that booms and explosions were not simply the be-all end-all of the show. People died, people were injured and the consequences and ethics of those conflicts were explored.

Sure Voyager had a catsuit, but Jeri Ryan was a fantastic actor and she had numerous fantastic episodes. The sexualisation is forgivable.


Also, im not worshiping Roddenberry, that is also absurd. What I appreciate though is the enlightened humanity, the peaceful future....the themes he installed into the show along with many others.
And there go the goalposts. Note also how you ignore the themes of Into Darkness.
There's a good chance that every anti-war movie will also be a good war movie: it needs to convey something about the experience of war in order to make its point. However, it's still possible to make distinctions between the two genres based on how the violence is presented and contextualized, whether it emphasizes style, action, or futility.

The fact that X number of other episode or films in the franchise have violence does not render them all the same: that moral equivalency doesn't hold. TheGoodStuff has every right to analyze the different films and episodes for how they present violence and use them to advance their narrative. And I think it's perfectly arguable that STID presents a voyeurism with respect to violent death that far exceeds what was shown previously in the franchise.

I'm sorry, but I don't consider the violence in STID to be as bad as the ceti eel scenes or the crew of the regula station strung up with their throats cut in TWOK, nowhere near in fact
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Old September 15 2013, 05:03 PM   #60
R. Star
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Re: Not real Star Trek

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post

Sex:

-Beverly writhing in pleasure in "Sub Rosa"

-DS9's mirror universe, which turned almost every female into lipstick lesbian or (in Kira's case) a permanently horny bisexual.

-Voyager, with Seven of Nine's unnecessary catsuit.

-Enterprise, with it's infamous decon chamber scenes, T'Pol's Pon Farr, T'Pol and Trip's massage sequences, T'Pol's bare ass, T'Pol and Hoshi being seduced by a Xindi agent, which featured much unnecessary groping.
Let's not forget space tinkerbell raping and impregnating Troi in The Child.
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