RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,356
Posts: 5,355,373
Members: 24,625
Currently online: 545
Newest member: Saracuda

TrekToday headlines

Borg Cube Fridge
By: T'Bonz on Jul 29

Free Enterprise Kickstarter
By: T'Bonz on Jul 29

Siddig To Join Game Of Thrones
By: T'Bonz on Jul 29

Sci-Fried To Release New Album
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Star Trek into Darkness Soundtrack
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Horse 1, Shatner 0
By: T'Bonz on Jul 28

Drexler TV Alert
By: T'Bonz on Jul 26

Retro Review: His Way
By: Michelle on Jul 26

MicroWarriors Releases Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 15 2013, 12:13 AM   #31
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

bullethead wrote: View Post
Look, I loved STXI even with it's flaws, but we're talking about a movie whose plot literally wouldn't happen if a) Admiral Marcus and Section 31 were competent enough to put a bomb in Khan's body or b) Khan simply beamed himself on to the Vengeance's bridge, killed everyone there, vented the ship's atmosphere, and taken it to Earth to get his vengeance.

These are horrifically obvious options that are being missed, not subtle points that require much analysis and thought to find.
Khan could have completely pulverized every bit of the Enterprise except for the bridge before making contact with Kirk during the first Reliant attack, but didn't.

Khan could have beamed up Kirk along with Genesis, killed him and been on his merry way, with his WMD in hand.

These are horrifically obvious options that are being missed, not subtle points that require much analysis and thought to find.
__________________
"I had no idea you were so... formidable. " - Anan 7 to James T. Kirk, A Taste of Armageddon
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 12:13 AM   #32
bullethead
Fleet Captain
 
bullethead's Avatar
 
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
It is a massive plot-hole. MASSIVE. He spent the whole movie wanting to kill Kirk right up to beaming up Genesis and then just changed his mind? I call BULLSHIT.
Khan had a flash of wicked inspiration? I've seen that scene several times and you see the cogs in Khan's head whirring away. Ain't nothing wrong with that nor is a devastating plothole so bad it ruins your enjoyment of TWOK.
You like it more so you make up excuses and forgive it's plotholes.
Is it really a plot hole when a character decides to settle on stranding his enemy for all eternity and blowing up his crippled ship after two failed attempts at killing said enemy? It's way more plausible than, say, stuffing people you want to keep alive inside of torpedoes with live warheads.
__________________
A business man and engineer discuss how to launch a communications satellite in the 1960s:
Biz Dev Guy: Your communications satellite has to be the size, shape, and weight of a hydrogen bomb.
bullethead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 12:13 AM   #33
Ln X
Fleet Captain
 
Ln X's Avatar
 
Location: The great gig in the sky
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
It is a massive plot-hole. MASSIVE. He spent the whole movie wanting to kill Kirk right up to beaming up Genesis and then just changed his mind? I call BULLSHIT.
Khan had a flash of wicked inspiration? I've seen that scene several times and you see the cogs in Khan's head whirring away. Ain't nothing wrong with that nor is a devastating plothole so bad it ruins your enjoyment of TWOK.
You like it more so you make up excuses and forgive it's plotholes.
Well obviously. A good film makes you overlook the plotholes but when the logic begins to seriously fail and fall apart -- especially when STID wants everyone to take it seriously -- then the astute viewer is going to do just that and ask why this story has been so poorly thought out. STID is trying to portray itself as a thoughtful and intelligent movie when it is anything but.


bullethead wrote: View Post
Is it really a plot hole when a character decides to settle on stranding his enemy for all eternity and blowing up his crippled ship after two failed attempts at killing said enemy? It's way more plausible than, say, stuffing people you want to keep alive inside of torpedoes with live warheads.
bullethead, I think you are one of the few voices of reason on this board!

Khan changed his mind; he thought of a better way to get his vengeance due to an opportunity presenting itself. It is that simple as that! It is not really a plothole if you can come up with a plausible reason for explaining this apparent 'inconsistency'.
__________________
Star Trek: The Approaching Shadow...

Caption contest: DS9
Ln X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 12:15 AM   #34
CorporalClegg
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalClegg's Avatar
 
Location: Where my heart is.
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Ln X wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post

Khan had a flash of wicked inspiration? I've seen that scene several times and you see the cogs in Khan's head whirring away. Ain't nothing wrong with that nor is a devastating plothole so bad it ruins your enjoyment of TWOK.
You like it more so you make up excuses and forgive it's plotholes.
Well obviously. A good film makes you overlook the plotholes but when the logic begins to seriously fail and fall apart -- especially when STID wants everyone to take it seriously -- then the astute viewer is going to do just that and ask why this story has been so poorly thought out. STID is trying to portray itself as a thoughtful and intelligent movie when it is anything but.
"Well obviously. A good film makes you overlook the plotholes but when the logic begins to seriously fail and fall apart -- especially when TWOK wants everyone to take it seriously -- then the astute viewer is going to do just that and ask why this story has been so poorly thought out. TWOK is trying to portray itself as a thoughtful and intelligent movie when it is anything but."

Do you see how this works now?
__________________
Konnichi wa!
CorporalClegg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 12:26 AM   #35
OpenMaw
Commander
 
OpenMaw's Avatar
 
Location: Everett, Washington
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Khan was just screaming "kill him!" to Chekov and Terrell right before beaming up Genesis. My god, I seriously can't believe what I'm reading.
Yes, and when he hears Kirk's voice, and what he says to Kirk, it becomes clear that he changed his mind, and why not? Khan had taken control of one of the most potentially devastating weapons ever devised and Kirk's voice is obviously reflecting that he's lost control. "You're going to HAVE to come down here...!" Grasping. Why wouldn't Khan let him live to suffer? Knowing the Enterprise will be destroyed and Kirk will be presumed dead by anyone coming to look.


Ln X wrote: View Post
Kirk is a juvenile hothead and Spock should have been made captain.
Well, y'know, to Kirk's (and the writers) credit. He admitted as much while talking to Spock. Which justifies what has happened into the story up to that point. I was never happy that Kirk was promoted so fast, but that scene in STID where Kirk owned up to everything that had happened and basically said "Yeah, I have no idea what i'm doing." It cleaned that slate for me. It was a great moment for the new version of Kirk.

STID isn't a perfect film, but it is by no means the worst. I'd even go as far as to say I had a lot of fun with it and would put it in the higher end of the curve.

Even if it does have a number of flaws, you know what it doesn't have? Large quantities of boredom. And I don't mean "Slow paced" I mean "I couldn't care less about the plot or the characters because it's so pat and dull." IE, most of the TNG movies.
__________________
"Paradise protests too much." SFDebris
OpenMaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 12:26 AM   #36
Ln X
Fleet Captain
 
Ln X's Avatar
 
Location: The great gig in the sky
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
"Well obviously. A good film makes you overlook the plotholes but when the logic begins to seriously fail and fall apart -- especially when TWOK wants everyone to take it seriously -- then the astute viewer is going to do just that and ask why this story has been so poorly thought out. TWOK is trying to portray itself as a thoughtful and intelligent movie when it is anything but."

Do you see how this works now?


You can polish a turd but it will still remain a turd. When the third NuTrek film comes out you'll see what has happened, just give it a few years. I and quite a few fans are ahead of the curve you see, we know where this trainwreck is going and we understand why Star Trek is -- at this moment -- creatively bankrupt.

But I'll give you one clue- style over substance.
__________________
Star Trek: The Approaching Shadow...

Caption contest: DS9
Ln X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 12:31 AM   #37
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Tennessee
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
bullethead wrote: View Post
Look, I loved STXI even with it's flaws, but we're talking about a movie whose plot literally wouldn't happen if a) Admiral Marcus and Section 31 were competent enough to put a bomb in Khan's body or b) Khan simply beamed himself on to the Vengeance's bridge, killed everyone there, vented the ship's atmosphere, and taken it to Earth to get his vengeance.

These are horrifically obvious options that are being missed, not subtle points that require much analysis and thought to find.
And WOK was a movie that wouldn't have happened had Chekov of Terrell stopped for directions. Or, you know, counted to six and got stuck on five.
Thank you!

I mean seriously are people really going to say that whatever plot holes are in STID are worse then an inability to count to f@#king six?
Forget that:

1) We have to assume that there is no official record of Kirk exiling Khan. Ignoring the logs and flight records made during Space Seed, and Kirk having to explain where a member of his crew went too. As well as shutting up everyone on the ship about the fact that 72 super humans captured a frontline starship.

2) Chekov is a fucking idiot. Forgetting counting to six, how hard is it to say "Oh Ceti Alpha System? Yeah, Captain Kirk beamed down some guy named Khan--who will straight up kill us if he finds us--to a planet in this system, we better be on the look out"

3) Genesis cave: The tunnels were a staging area. Soooo...where's the transporter pads? The labs? Some way to beam up to the station or a ship. Starfleet really is an OSHA violation if they had engineers craving out tunnels with the only way out being to wait on someone on the station to beam 'em up. Hate for there to be an accident when the transporter operator went to take a piss.

TWOK hinges on everyone in Starfleet and especially the Enterprise crew being incompetent at their jobs.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
Good men don't need rules, The Doctor (A Good Man Goes To War)

Last edited by SeerSGB; September 15 2013 at 01:41 AM.
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 12:35 AM   #38
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post

TWOK hinges on everyone in Starfleet and especially the Enterprise crew being incompetent at their jobs.
Well, it also needs Khan to be the "superior moron" as well.
__________________
"I had no idea you were so... formidable. " - Anan 7 to James T. Kirk, A Taste of Armageddon
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 12:37 AM   #39
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Ln X wrote: View Post
I and quite a few fans are ahead of the curve you see, we know where this trainwreck is going and we understand why Star Trek is -- at this moment -- creatively bankrupt.
What a fucking joke. It can never be as creatively bankrupt as it was in the late-90's/early-00's.
__________________
"I had no idea you were so... formidable. " - Anan 7 to James T. Kirk, A Taste of Armageddon
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 12:39 AM   #40
bullethead
Fleet Captain
 
bullethead's Avatar
 
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
I and quite a few fans are ahead of the curve you see, we know where this trainwreck is going and we understand why Star Trek is -- at this moment -- creatively bankrupt.
What a fucking joke. It can never be as creatively bankrupt as it was in the late-90's/early-00's.
I think that's a point we can all agree on.
__________________
A business man and engineer discuss how to launch a communications satellite in the 1960s:
Biz Dev Guy: Your communications satellite has to be the size, shape, and weight of a hydrogen bomb.
bullethead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 12:39 AM   #41
CorporalClegg
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalClegg's Avatar
 
Location: Where my heart is.
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Ln X wrote: View Post
You can polish a turd but it will still remain a turd. When the third NuTrek film comes out you'll see what has happened, just give it a few years. I and quite a few fans are ahead of the curve you see, we know where this trainwreck is going and we understand why Star Trek is -- at this moment -- creatively bankrupt.
Creatively bankrupt train wrecks don't produce two sequential films that were both critical and financial successes.



Oh, and since you're felling prophetic, can you please hit me up with next week's Powerball?
__________________
Konnichi wa!
CorporalClegg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 12:41 AM   #42
Opus
Commodore
 
Opus's Avatar
 
Location: Bloom County
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Ln X wrote: View Post
I and quite a few fans are ahead of the curve you see, we know where this trainwreck is going and we understand why Star Trek is -- at this moment -- creatively bankrupt.


No.

__________________
Now that I've seen it, and have also had time to mellow, to really think about it, I now find it absolutely, unbearably repulsive in every way except for some of the acting. - about The Wrath of Khan. Interstat, Issue 62: 1982
Opus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 12:43 AM   #43
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Tennessee
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

BillJ wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post

TWOK hinges on everyone in Starfleet and especially the Enterprise crew being incompetent at their jobs.
Well, it also needs Khan to be the "superior moron" as well.
I figure it's pretty tit for tat.

The "Three dimensional thinking shit gets me everytime. Really, really? That's the big "trick"? Khan never flew in a plane or dealt with submarines when he was a world leader, or for that matter none of his people? Or, how about the chance that mister superior intellect, might browse a book or two on basic Starfleet tactics or Starship operation? How the fuck was he getting anywhere if he couldn't think to command his ship in 3 dimensions? This never came up when he read the Enterprise's tech manuals in Space Seed? "Starshp Navigation for Dummies?" No, never?

And we know he has access to Enterprise design specs: He knew where to blow holes through the refit...the refit that is an "Almost totally new Enterprise" that would have shit in different places from the version Khan is familiar with. And in all the studying the FUCKING PREFIX CODE never came up in his research?

This is why I don't worry about analyzing a Trek movie to much. I'll rip 'em apart if I do.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
Good men don't need rules, The Doctor (A Good Man Goes To War)

Last edited by SeerSGB; September 15 2013 at 06:39 AM.
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 12:47 AM   #44
M'Sharak
Definitely Herbert. Maybe.
 
M'Sharak's Avatar
 
Location: Terra Inlandia
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

Mountie1988 wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Mountie1988 wrote: View Post
Well, you guys have successfully pointed out all what is wrong with Into Darkness and therefore why it is the worst of all Star Trek movies.
Not really. You are giving too much importance and clout to a very few people.
Deliberately. There's no gain in denying the internet's subjugation by blockheads
Ln X wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Three cheers for confirmation bias!
Three cheers also for Abram's apologists! Bless you laddies and lasses. Trek's going to the gutter and we're all cheering and singing its praises!
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
...
Khan had a flash of wicked inspiration? I've seen that scene several times and you see the cogs in Khan's head whirring away. Ain't nothing wrong with that nor is a devastating plothole so bad it ruins your enjoyment of TWOK.
You like it more so you make up excuses and forgive it's plotholes.
Ln X wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
...
...
Well obviously. A good film makes you overlook the plotholes but when the logic begins to seriously fail and fall apart -- especially when STID wants everyone to take it seriously -- then the astute viewer is going to do just that and ask why this story has been so poorly thought out. STID is trying to portray itself as a thoughtful and intelligent movie when it is anything but.


bullethead wrote: View Post
...
bullethead, I think you are one of the few voices of reason on this board!

...
Ln X wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
...


You can polish a turd but it will still remain a turd. When the third NuTrek film comes out you'll see what has happened, just give it a few years. I and quite a few fans are ahead of the curve you see, we know where this trainwreck is going and we understand why Star Trek is -- at this moment -- creatively bankrupt.

But I'll give you one clue- style over substance.
(emphasis mine)

I do hope that this is not going to turn out to be be one of those threads.

So long as we can keep it to the topic of plot holes (real or imagined,) this thread will continue. If I get the notion that people are participating less for the discussion and more for taking swipes at people whose opinions about the movie they do not share, then this thread will be closed, and warnings may ensue.

Ln X, you seem to have a habit of appearing in this forum only when there's an opportunity for taking little swipes and jabs at the people who enjoyed the movie (while ostensibly posting in praise or support of an opinion expressed by another); you'll want to be extra-careful, or the first warning could be yours.
__________________
Dinosaurs are just really, really big chickens.
M'Sharak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 12:53 AM   #45
Cinema Geekly
Lieutenant Commander
 
Cinema Geekly's Avatar
 
View Cinema Geekly's Twitter Profile
Re: STID's plot holes unrivaled?

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
You can polish a turd but it will still remain a turd. When the third NuTrek film comes out you'll see what has happened, just give it a few years. I and quite a few fans are ahead of the curve you see, we know where this trainwreck is going and we understand why Star Trek is -- at this moment -- creatively bankrupt.
Creatively bankrupt train wrecks don't produce two sequential films that were both critical and financial successes.



Oh, and since you're felling prophetic, can you please hit me up with next week's Powerball?
And not just critical success either.

User Average from Metacritic: 7.9/10
User Average from IMDB: 8/10
User Average from RT: 91% Liked It -- Average 4/5

It is pretty obvious that such people are in the vocal minority here. To say that 'people' don't like it isn't very accurate. I think at the very least users who make such claims should use 'some people' don't like it.
Cinema Geekly is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:46 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.