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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old September 14 2013, 03:39 PM   #76
Santa Kang
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Re: Imagine the TOS Starfleet

"Vulcan's race" is just the writers giving Spock a more formal way of talking to high light that he is different.

I don't recall any "anti-Vulcan" sentiment in early TOS. Stiles only reacted to Spock's background after he discovered he looked like a Romulan. McCoy's barbs were directed towards Spock's logical-emotionless demeanor in an attempt to break it.
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Old September 14 2013, 04:01 PM   #77
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Re: Imagine the TOS Starfleet

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
I'm reminded of the impression I constantly received when I first watched TOS - namely, that the Enterprise type was the biggest and best thing Starfleet had ...
I never got that impression, more the Enterprise was just one of many.
I also got that impression and it's backed up in how the Enterprise is descibed in TMoST. At the time that class of ship was the biggest and most advanced Starfleet had. Harry Mudd in "I, Mudd" after grabbing the Enterprise also says he's now got one of the fastest ships in the fleet so how eill they catch him.
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Old September 14 2013, 05:11 PM   #78
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Re: Imagine the TOS Starfleet

Perhaps she's just the fastest but not necessarily the biggest or the most advanced?
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Old September 14 2013, 05:30 PM   #79
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Re: Imagine the TOS Starfleet

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I don't recall any "anti-Vulcan" sentiment in early TOS.
For one thing we have the Talos IV file with its "Half-Vulcan Science Officer".
It does have a xenophobic ring to it.

Then we have this piece of dialogue from "Whom Gods Destroy" (okay, late TOS but referring to pre-TOS events):

KIRK: I agree there was a time when war was necessary, and you were our greatest warrior. I studied your victory at Axanar when I was a cadet. In fact it's still required reading at the Academy.
GARTH: As well it should be.
KIRK: Very well. But my first visit to Axanar was as a new fledged cadet on a peace mission.
GARTH: Peace mission! Politicians and weaklings!
KIRK: They were humanitarians and statesmen, and they had a dream. A dream that became a reality and spread throughout the stars, a dream that made Mister Spock and me brothers.
GARTH: Mister Spock, do you consider Captain Kirk and yourself brothers?
SPOCK: Captain Kirk speaks somewhat figuratively and with undue emotion. However, what he says is logical and I do, in fact, agree with it.

So there was armed conflict during the time of Garth of Izar which eventually enabled Spock and Kirk to become "brothers".

This also indicates that Human-Vulcan relations were not that great some time prior to TOS.
Maybe Vulcan was too embarrassed to tell Earth there were pre-Surak colonies out there and the crew of an unsuspecting Earth ship visited one of these colonies and wrongly assumed to encounter logical, friendly Vulcans...the diplomatic ramifications would have been enormous.

Bob
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Old September 14 2013, 06:02 PM   #80
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Re: Imagine the TOS Starfleet

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I don't recall any "anti-Vulcan" sentiment in early TOS.
For one thing we have the Talos IV file with its "Half-Vulcan Science Officer".
It does have a xenophobic ring to it.

Then we have this piece of dialogue from "Whom Gods Destroy" (okay, late TOS but referring to pre-TOS events):

KIRK: I agree there was a time when war was necessary, and you were our greatest warrior. I studied your victory at Axanar when I was a cadet. In fact it's still required reading at the Academy.
GARTH: As well it should be.
KIRK: Very well. But my first visit to Axanar was as a new fledged cadet on a peace mission.
GARTH: Peace mission! Politicians and weaklings!
KIRK: They were humanitarians and statesmen, and they had a dream. A dream that became a reality and spread throughout the stars, a dream that made Mister Spock and me brothers.
GARTH: Mister Spock, do you consider Captain Kirk and yourself brothers?
SPOCK: Captain Kirk speaks somewhat figuratively and with undue emotion. However, what he says is logical and I do, in fact, agree with it.

So there was armed conflict during the time of Garth of Izar which eventually enabled Spock and Kirk to become "brothers".

This also indicates that Human-Vulcan relations were not that great some time prior to TOS.
Maybe Vulcan was too embarrassed to tell Earth there were pre-Surak colonies out there and the crew of an unsuspecting Earth ship visited one of these colonies and wrongly assumed to encounter logical, friendly Vulcans...the diplomatic ramifications would have been enormous.

Bob
A poorly written prop does not "Anti-Vulcan" make. The mention of Spock is very clumsy and out of place. He was second officer at the time.

Kirk's statement doesn't strike me as being "anti-Vulcan" either. Sounds like it is about a conflict that resulted in the unification of several species. If there was any "anti-Vulcan sentiment" it was prior the timeframe of TOS and not evident in TOS it's self. Which oddly enough fits in with Star Trek Enterprise (canon validation?)
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Old September 14 2013, 06:58 PM   #81
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Re: Imagine the TOS Starfleet

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Doesn't sound logical to me. The whole context of the scene is about Spock trying to motivate the good doctor to join him in his investigation while McCoy wants Spock to join him drinking or getting drunk.
Correcting Dr. McCoy will not serve Spock's goal but rather the opposite.
Spock is McCoy's superior officer. Spock doesn't need to motivate McCoy to do anything, he can order him to if he wants. And it would be much more in Spock's character to correct McCoy's mistake no matter what...but he doesn't.
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Old September 14 2013, 06:59 PM   #82
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Re: Imagine the TOS Starfleet

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Perhaps she's just the fastest but not necessarily the biggest or the most advanced?
The whole subtext of the show emphasized the idea that the Enterprise and her sisterships were the biggest and best the Federation had launched. The only time I ever saw that questioned was years after the fact when FJ's technical maual came out and the dreadnaught was a proposed idea. But that's not onscreen so it doesn't really count. And since then there's been a lot of retconning going on.

The JJ films have tended to reinforce the idea that there wasn't anything really special about the Enterprise and her like, but then again that's a production that has no bearing whatsoever on what was intended in TOS made decades before.
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Old September 14 2013, 07:05 PM   #83
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Re: Imagine the TOS Starfleet

Warped9 wrote: View Post

The JJ films have tended to reinforce the idea that there wasn't anything really special about the Enterprise...
I definitely missed this part in the Abramsverse films. The crew aren't as attached to the Enterprise yet, but the ship is only a year old.

Plus, she was called the newest flagship at the beginning of the first film. I'd call that special.
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Old September 14 2013, 07:09 PM   #84
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Re: Imagine the TOS Starfleet

BillJ wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post

The JJ films have tended to reinforce the idea that there wasn't anything really special about the Enterprise...
I definitely missed this part in the Abramsverse films. The crew aren't as attached to the Enterprise yet, but the ship is only a year old.

Plus, she was called the newest flagship at the beginning of the first film. I'd call that special.
Yep it's supposed to be the most advanced and newest ship in the fleet.
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Old September 14 2013, 07:11 PM   #85
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Re: Imagine the TOS Starfleet

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Yep it's supposed to be the most advanced and newest ship in the fleet.
Well... officially.
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Old September 14 2013, 07:13 PM   #86
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Re: Imagine the TOS Starfleet

BillJ wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Yep it's supposed to be the most advanced and newest ship in the fleet.
Well... officially.
RoboBanzai has a secret.
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Old September 14 2013, 07:31 PM   #87
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Re: Imagine the TOS Starfleet

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
A poorly written prop does not "Anti-Vulcan" make. The mention of Spock is very clumsy and out of place. He was second officer at the time.
He wasn't science officer? Like it or not but the file is there and seems to indicate a desire to mention race other than human (wait a minute, I should know since I undersigned he damn thing ).

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Kirk's statement doesn't strike me as being "anti-Vulcan" either.
Same here. The point was to reveal possible tensions between Earth and Vulcan prior to TOS as a source for anti-Vulcan resentiments.

Bob
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Old September 14 2013, 07:37 PM   #88
Santa Kang
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Re: Imagine the TOS Starfleet

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
A poorly written prop does not "Anti-Vulcan" make. The mention of Spock is very clumsy and out of place. He was second officer at the time.
He wasn't science officer? Like it or not but the file is there and seems to indicate a desire to mention race other than human (wait a minute, I should know since I undersigned he damn thing ).
Not sure if Spock is called a Science Officer in the Cage.

As I said the phasing is just too awkward to take seriously. It's like someone lifted it from the show's production outline rather than from a Starfleet report.
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Kirk's statement doesn't strike me as being "anti-Vulcan" either.
Same here. The point was to reveal possible tensions between Earth and Vulcan prior to TOS as a source for anti-Vulcan resentiments.
Then it's not an example of anti-Vulcan sentiment in TOS. It's speculation with little to support it.
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Old September 14 2013, 07:46 PM   #89
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Re: Imagine the TOS Starfleet

A mind altering parasite that lead to a brief Earth Vulcan war, and resoled through a humorous quirk, just might be the source of McCoy's "No wonder they were conquered quote."
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Old September 14 2013, 10:14 PM   #90
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Re: Imagine the TOS Starfleet

publiusr wrote: View Post
A mind altering parasite that lead to a brief Earth Vulcan war, and resoled through a humorous quirk, just might be the source of McCoy's "No wonder they were conquered quote."
I think not.
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