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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old September 12 2013, 05:49 PM   #16
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x11 "The Hunted"

jpv2000 wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
PICARD: Number One, will you note in our report that if the government of Angosia survives the night, we will offer them Federation assistance in their efforts to reprogram their veterans.
RIKER: And if the government doesn't survive?
PICARD: I have a feeling they will choose to.
"if the government of Angosia survives". So a whole society is on the brink of a potentially violent and brutal uprising, and our enlightened Picard's reaction to this is just to be tepid. And this is how you want to tell a story about war veterans being unwanted in society by having our enlightened heroes just shrug it off and hope they don't kill everyone. Well since we never heard from the Angosians again, I have a feeling they didn't survive the night.
I actually liked this bit.
If you wish to explain, I would like to know why this bit works for you. Not to counter you or say you're wrong (it's your opinion and I respect that), but so it will help me see something that I may be missing. All I see here is Picard hoping for the best even though he should have the diplomatic experience and means to bring a resolution to this conflict without being so pompous. He could have offered the Prime Minister the resources needed to help bring these soldiers back into society as a sign of good faith that the Federation wants what's best for everyone. The Angosians wouldn't have to default their economy, and the soldiers can be brought back into society. This would have given the Angosians a taste of what it means to work together with other cultures while still giving them a choice if they want this kind of assistance or not.
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Old September 12 2013, 05:58 PM   #17
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x11 "The Hunted"

Jeyl wrote: View Post

If you wish to explain, I would like to know why this bit works for you. Not to counter you or say you're wrong (it's your opinion and I respect that), but so it will help me see something that I may be missing. All I see here is Picard hoping for the best even though he should have the diplomatic experience and means to bring a resolution to this conflict without being so pompous. He could have offered the Prime Minister the resources needed to help bring these soldiers back into society as a sign of good faith that the Federation wants what's best for everyone. The Angosians wouldn't have to default their economy, and the soldiers can be brought back into society. This would have given the Angosians a taste of what it means to work together with other cultures while still giving them a choice if they want this kind of assistance or not.
Picard didn't have a leg to stand on once the Angosian government told him to butt-out. His thought process at the end was likely once the Angosian government went through a bit of turbulence over the issue, then they may be more receptive to Federation mediation/intervention.
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Old September 13 2013, 01:36 PM   #18
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x11 "The Hunted"

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Picard didn't have a leg to stand on once the Angosian government told him to butt-out.
Actually, Picard did have a leg to stand on.
Roga: Mister Prime Minister, with all due respect, you will have to force us. Or at least try.
Nayrok: Captain, you must do something. Call your ship.
There's your "bit of turbulence" where the Prime Minister was more receptive to Federation intervention. Instead of offering the assistance to help reintegrate the soldiers back into society right then and there, Picard is willing to risk the deaths of thousands just so he can teach the Prime Minister a lesson.

I guess I shouldn't look too much into this. We are after all talking about the same character who praised Riker for not saving a little girl's life.
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Old September 13 2013, 03:17 PM   #19
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x11 "The Hunted"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Picard didn't have a leg to stand on once the Angosian government told him to butt-out.
Actually, Picard did have a leg to stand on.
Roga: Mister Prime Minister, with all due respect, you will have to force us. Or at least try.
Nayrok: Captain, you must do something. Call your ship.
It is very clear that the Prime Minister wants Picard to "deal" with the issue at that point and it's not dealing with it by working to reintegrate those soldiers back into Angosian society.
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Old September 13 2013, 03:49 PM   #20
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x11 "The Hunted"

BillJ wrote: View Post
It is very clear that the Prime Minister wants Picard to "deal" with the issue at that point and it's not dealing with it by working to reintegrate those soldiers back into Angosian society.
Consider the possible situation had Picard given the Prime Minister a choice. They can either accept the Federation's help at reintegrating their soldiers back into society at no expense, or deal with the situation themselves. Taking sides in an armed conflict is one thing, but helping to prevent a conflict should be an entirely different matter, especially if this world has an interest in joining the Federation. Star Trek has done this kind of thing before!
Kirk: Yes, Councilman, you have a real war on your hands. You can either wage it with real weapons, or you might consider an alternative. Put an end to it. Make peace.
Anan: There can be no peace. Don't you see? We've admitted it to ourselves. We're a killer species. It's instinctive. It's the same with you. Your General Order Twenty Four.
Kirk: All right. It's instinctive. But the instinct can be fought. We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes. Knowing that we won't kill today. Contact Vendikar. I think you'll find that they're just as terrified, appalled, horrified as you are, that they'll do anything to avoid the alternative I've given you. Peace or utter destruction. It's up to you.
Fox: As a third party interested only in peace and the establishment of normal relations, I should be glad to offer my services as negotiator between you and Vendikar. I've had some small experiences in such matters.
Anan: There may be a chance. We have a direct channel with Vendikar's High Council. It hasn't been used in centuries.
Fox: Then it's long overdue.
See? That's the Federation working with a non-Federation civilization put an end to a conflict hands on. No "it's none of our business" or "Let's see if they survive the night".
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Old September 13 2013, 04:01 PM   #21
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x11 "The Hunted"

Jeyl wrote: View Post

See? That's the Federation working with a non-Federation civilization put an end to a conflict hands on. No "it's none of our business" or "Let's see if they survive the night".
But if you force a solution on someone that they really don't want, then that solution isn't likely too last for long. I agree with Picard that the only way a lasting solution would be reached would be to hold the Angosian governments feet to the fire.

And Peter David postulated that Eminiar and Vendikarr went to war anyway and Vendikarr was obliterated in DC Comics (2nd run) issue #11, "...Let's Kill All The Lawyers!"



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Old September 13 2013, 04:22 PM   #22
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x11 "The Hunted"

BillJ wrote: View Post
But if you force a solution on someone that they really don't want, then that solution isn't likely too last for long.
Force a solution on someone that they really don't want. Is that not exactly what Picard did? He forced the Prime Minister to deal with something he didn't want by refusing him his assistance and simply leaving.

And where in this sentence "They can either accept the Federation's help at reintegrating their soldiers back into society at no expense, or deal with the situation themselves." There are TWO CHOICES there! That's not a "forced solution". Plus reintegrating their soldiers was a method that their society considered, but was deemed too expensive. Offering to go with a solution that they themselves considered but without the expense.

Also, the comics are non-canon. Even if they were, well, at least Kirk tried. Seeing the potential of something bad happening that no one can predict with certainty shouldn't be the reason why no one should try and help. Otherwise this whole Federation was a mistake to begin with. Also if Kirk didn't interfere in the manner he was presented with, no one in that panel would be alive right now.
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Old September 13 2013, 04:29 PM   #23
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x11 "The Hunted"

Jeyl wrote: View Post

Force a solution on someone that they really don't want. Is that not exactly what Picard did? He forced the Prime Minister to deal with something he didn't want by refusing him his assistance and simply leaving.
It is not Picard's job to solve these people's problems for them.

And where in this sentence "They can either accept the Federation's help at reintegrating their soldiers back into society at no expense, or deal with the situation themselves." There are TWO CHOICES there! That's not a "forced solution". Plus reintegrating their soldiers was a method that their society considered, but was deemed too expensive. Offering to go with a solution that they themselves considered but without the expense.
So the Federation is suppose to pay to fix a problem that the Angosian government refused to?

Also, the comics are non-canon. Even if they were, well, at least Kirk tried. Seeing the potential of something bad happening that no one can predict with certainty shouldn't be the reason why no one should try and help. Otherwise this whole Federation was a mistake to begin with. Also if Kirk didn't interfere in the manner he was presented with, no one in that would be alive right now.
Stories are stories and the "Trial of James T. Kirk" storyline along with "The Return of the Serpent" (DC Comics 1st run issues #43-45) seem applicable here. As we've learned here on Earth, not every situation is made better by imposing outsider values on a culture (See: Enterprise, "Cogenitor"). Sometimes, they simply have to find their own way. Even if that road is paved with blood.
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Old September 13 2013, 05:07 PM   #24
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x11 "The Hunted"

BillJ wrote: View Post
It is not Picard's job to solve these people's problems for them.
So why help capture one of their escaped prisoners? That's not Picard's problem, but he did it anyways. Heck, Roga escaping the Enterprise was under Picard's watch, not the Prime Minister's. Saying that they delivered the prisoner back is like saying you delivered a criminal back to jail after it's been raised to the ground.

Also, Up The Long Ladder showed Picard was willing to not only force a solution down not one, but TWO cultures' throats, but in such a way he had to blackmail them into doing it.

Picard: Now, Commander Riker has asked that your laboratories be inspected for stolen tissue samples, and I understand his concern. We may have to transport all your equipment here, to the Enterprise.
Granger: I see. When reason fails, you'll resort to blackmail.
Picard: Fine. Destroy yourselves.
Pulaski: It's not so bad, Captain. In fifty years we'll have a new class M planet, complete with cities, and ready for colonisation.
Picard: You see, the end is closer than you like to think.

Again, this culture doesn't want to go this route, but Picard is using methods to force them into accepting it.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Stories are stories and the "Trial of James T. Kirk" storyline along with "The Return of the Serpent" (DC Comics 1st run issues #43-45) seem applicable here. As we've learned here on Earth, not every situation is made better by imposing outsider values on a culture. Sometimes, they simply have to find their own way. Even if that road is paved with blood.
For crying out loud. GIVING THE PRIME MINISTER A CHOICE IS NOT IMPOSING THEIR VALUES ONTO HIM! He can say yes to the Federation helping his soldiers reintegrate back into society, or not. The choice is his, and since Picard is already too happy to leave them to their fates, I'm sure he wouldn't impose the peaceful solution if the Prime Minister said no.

BillJ wrote: View Post
(See: Enterprise, "Cogenitor")
I would consider that a fair point, but than I remembered it's from Enterprise, a show where the main character decided it was best to allow an entire alien civilization to die than out than continue to live a peaceful co-existance with another species (See: Enterprise, "Dear Doctor"). When your characters get praise for dictating that the fate of an entire race should be to just die out, yet they reprimand their officers for educating someone else about individuality and self-awareness to their own worth, their moral compass is way off in the deep end.
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Old September 13 2013, 05:10 PM   #25
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x11 "The Hunted"

The less said about Dear Doctor, the better.

As far as Up the Long Ladder goes, these were Earth colonists Picard was dealing with. Plus, the Enterprise crew had the right to refuse being cloned.

Once you bite the hand that is trying to help you, like the Angosian government did, you'll find people are less likely to offer that help a second time around.
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Old September 13 2013, 05:20 PM   #26
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x11 "The Hunted"

And if I can just make one more point, don't you think this whole argument just shows how this episode is a poor attempt at bringing awareness to soldiers who have fought in wars but are neglected? When the main issue isn't whether or not soldiers should be treated more fairly, but how we should just mind our own business and let god sort it out, where is the commitment to the message? The reason why the subject of war veterans being neglected is an important one is because they are OUR VETERANS. Speaking as an American who has never fought in a war, I find it astounding that an episode that tries to do something with it and reduces it into an alien civilization where you can simply ignore it thanks to the Prime Directive. If your main characters care more about not involving themselves in the affairs of others, you are short changing the message.

That's another reason why Deep Space Nine's "The Siege of AR-558" and subsequent episode involving Nog's trauma do a much better job in dealing with this sort of situation. Nog is a part of the crew, not some "alien of the week" who we can simply drop off onto their home planet and forget about. When the trauma of what happened to him affects his behavior, it affects everyone around him, even his non-starfleet friends.
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Old September 13 2013, 05:30 PM   #27
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x11 "The Hunted"

Jeyl wrote: View Post

That's another reason why Deep Space Nine's "The Siege of AR-558" and subsequent episode involving Nog's trauma do a much better job in dealing with this sort of situation. Nog is a part of the crew, not some "alien of the week" who we can simply drop off onto their home planet and forget about.
I really wished they had dropped him off at his planet, along with the Vic Fontaine holo-program.
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Old September 14 2013, 07:57 AM   #28
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x11 "The Hunted"

If the government leaders survived this episode and did actually resolve their internal issues, I would think this encounter would still seriously piss them off towards the federation. Everyone in that culture who ends up having problems due to the new changes would probably blame the federation.
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Old September 14 2013, 02:17 PM   #29
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x11 "The Hunted"

Makarov wrote: View Post
If the government leaders survived this episode and did actually resolve their internal issues, I would think this encounter would still seriously piss them off towards the federation. Everyone in that culture who ends up having problems due to the new changes would probably blame the federation.
And?
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Old September 14 2013, 05:54 PM   #30
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Re: Episode of the Week: 3x11 "The Hunted"

And that means it's not the happy go lucky ending that it seems to be. Picard's not suppposed to go around making enemies for the federation. They got involved just enough to disrupt their entire government but beam away at the most critical moment.
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