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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 14 2013, 01:43 AM   #46
Kelthaz
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Re: Re-writing the climax of STiD

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Do you honestly think 99% of viewers even noticed or cared about the physics issues of the Enterprise falling to Earth or whether other Starfleet ships came out to fight?
The physics? No. But a 1 on 1 ship battle right on Earth's doorstep without any intervention from StarFleet is a pretty big plothole. Especially after the entire movie is spent telling us how Earth is gearing up for war with the Klingons and that should include some defense for your home planet.

Movies should make sense and character actions should be believable.
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Old September 14 2013, 01:50 AM   #47
SeerSGB
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Re: Re-writing the climax of STiD

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Do you honestly think 99% of viewers even noticed or cared about the physics issues of the Enterprise falling to Earth or whether other Starfleet ships came out to fight?
The physics? No. But a 1 on 1 ship battle right on Earth's doorstep without any intervention from StarFleet is a pretty big plothole. Especially after the entire movie is spent telling us how Earth is gearing up for war with the Klingons and that should include some defense for your home planet.

Movies should make sense and character actions should be believable.
It's a bit of a Trek staple.

* TMP, Enterprise only ship in range of an attacker that's a couple days from Earth.

* TSFS, Kirk steals the Enterprise and Excelsior is the only ship that tries to run her down. No system patrol ships? No other starships hanging around that could have gave chase. It was pretty clear where Kirk was going, there should have been a half dozen ships dropping out of warp behind him. Hell, the amount of time it took them to hack the spacedoors, there should have been a couple ships waiting.

* GEN, Enterprise B is the only ship in range of the ships in distress.
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Old September 14 2013, 01:50 AM   #48
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Re: Re-writing the climax of STiD

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Movies should make sense and character actions should be believable.
Indeed, and it's not like we didn't see other ships at Starbase One when Enterprise warped off to Kronos.

Though I think it would have been a really evil bit of dialogue had Marcus said something akin to Kirk being on his own. Implying that the rest of the fleet has been ordered to stay away from the fight or given some other distraction while Marcus runs clean up.
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Old September 14 2013, 02:04 AM   #49
Kelthaz
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Re: Re-writing the climax of STiD

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
It's a bit of a Trek staple.

* TMP, Enterprise only ship in range of an attacker that's a couple days from Earth.

* TSFS, Kirk steals the Enterprise and Excelsior is the only ship that tries to run her down. No system patrol ships? No other starships hanging around that could have gave chase. It was pretty clear where Kirk was going, there should have been a half dozen ships dropping out of warp behind him. Hell, the amount of time it took them to hack the spacedoors, there should have been a couple ships waiting.

* GEN, Enterprise B is the only ship in range of the ships in distress.
Don't forget Nemesis. The Enterprise had support in that film, but the ships were too stupid to enter the nebula and help out in the fight. It counts.
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Old September 14 2013, 02:07 AM   #50
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Re: Re-writing the climax of STiD

anh165 wrote: View Post
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I never found the plummeting ships scene very interesting. Just didn't excite me. By the same token, in 09, once Nero is destroyed, there is a bit more tacked on where the Enterprise has to escape the black hole. While the cracks in the bridge and view screen look great on screen, I just felt like this is all extra, and that the action/ plot elements had already peaked prior to this moment. In STiD this "extra" action takes a looong time to play out, despite the guts of the story having been previously resolved.

By comparison, I think (even with it's flaws) First Contact is one of the best-paced blockbuster-style films I've ever seen. They are constantly moving the story forward. And guess what? Both the A and B story climax at exactly the same time, and there isn't an "extra action denouement just for the sake of it. The Borg Queen dies at the same time the first warp flight happens. It's great stuff.

Endings to action movies are tricky, and this kind of thing happens a lot. Lethal Weapon is a fantastic movie, but the fight scene at the end in the rain between Riggs and Mr. Joshua is superfluous, but we had to see these two guys have it out because of their rivalry. I wish they made this fight necessary to the story. And what makes it worse is that Donner can't really stage an easy-to-follow fight in the dark when it's raining.

I just felt that the "plunging ships into the atmosphere wasn't very interesting." Then again, although I can see why they did it, and (one some level I can appreciate the purpose of the Kirk/ Spock role reversal) I just didn't like them quoting from a better film. Plus, the technical aspects are a bit unclear. In TWOK, Spock was repairing the warp engines so the ship could go to warp! In STiD, Kirk was repairing to warp core sop... the ship could activate shields and ignite a shit-ton of stupid little rockets located all over the hull? T
OK,you have established that you are in the minority of people who still limits themselves to mid-90's TV episodic story progression.

The pacing, the action scenes and effects in ST09 and ID works very well, and its right up there with it's MODERN peers which is the standard for today's global audience.
Spacious argument.
But Michael Arndt, writer of episode 7, gave a lecture to film students as to why Episode 4 still resonates so strongly after all those years, and that is partly due to all the narratives climaxing and resolving simultaneously. There is nothing wrong with my thoughts that some old fashion actual writing would have saved this film. As opposed to giving in to the short attention spans of today's young audiences.
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Old September 14 2013, 02:23 AM   #51
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Re: Re-writing the climax of STiD

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Agreed. But do even need to wake him up? Just make him a new breed of augment based of Khan's DNA or the research the created Khan. If you had to have a Khan reference, have Harrison obsessed with Khan, modeling his life on Khan's teaching.
That would work too. It's just so hard NOT to make the Moltalban comparison and Khan's back story clearly predates the time line change. So he should always be someone that's muscular and with an ethnic accent.
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Old September 14 2013, 02:31 AM   #52
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Re: Re-writing the climax of STiD

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
It's a bit of a Trek staple.

* TMP, Enterprise only ship in range of an attacker that's a couple days from Earth.

* TSFS, Kirk steals the Enterprise and Excelsior is the only ship that tries to run her down. No system patrol ships? No other starships hanging around that could have gave chase. It was pretty clear where Kirk was going, there should have been a half dozen ships dropping out of warp behind him. Hell, the amount of time it took them to hack the spacedoors, there should have been a couple ships waiting.

* GEN, Enterprise B is the only ship in range of the ships in distress.
Don't forget Nemesis. The Enterprise had support in that film, but the ships were too stupid to enter the nebula and help out in the fight. It counts.
True. I was only counting stories where the Enterprise was at Earth.

* TWOK, Enterprise is the only ship in the quadrant. A major scientific project that could tip the balance of power in the Federation's favor and no one thought to put a couple of ships on patrol?

* TSFS, why no patrol ships in the Genesis space? If nothing else, an armed escort with the Grissom. Shit, a regular starship even that could defend itself.

* TFF, No one thought to put Kirk on a ship that wasn't falling apart and let him use it to go to Nimbus III?

* TUC, The starships that ferried the Federation, Romulan, and Klingon delegates to the conference are no where to be seen. Hell, Chang could have called them up and said Kirk has escaped and coming to attack the conference and had him intercepted long before he got there; Enterprise would be a smoking wreck and any threat to Chang's plan would be gone.
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Old September 14 2013, 02:40 AM   #53
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Re: Re-writing the climax of STiD

ichab wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post

Agreed. But do even need to wake him up? Just make him a new breed of augment based of Khan's DNA or the research the created Khan. If you had to have a Khan reference, have Harrison obsessed with Khan, modeling his life on Khan's teaching.
That would work too. It's just so hard NOT to make the Moltalban comparison and Khan's back story clearly predates the time line change. So he should always be someone that's muscular and with an ethnic accent.
Cumberbatch beefed up and has an ethnic accent, so he fits the bill.
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Old September 14 2013, 11:11 AM   #54
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Re: Re-writing the climax of STiD

OpenMaw wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote:
the destruction of half the city
A bit of an exaggeration, I think.
Maybe if taken as absolutely literal, but, the vengeance took out several rows of buildings. I can only guess just how many people were killed. Thousands.

It's one of the few spots I wish they had paused for just a moment to give the crew a chance to react more. Sulu, especially. He's from Frisco!
On 9/11, they could have potentially killed 40,000 people in just two sky scrapers. They didn't because they attacked too early.
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Old September 14 2013, 01:04 PM   #55
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Re-writing the climax of STiD

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Do you honestly think 99% of viewers even noticed or cared about the physics issues of the Enterprise falling to Earth or whether other Starfleet ships came out to fight?
The physics? No. But a 1 on 1 ship battle right on Earth's doorstep without any intervention from StarFleet is a pretty big plothole. Especially after the entire movie is spent telling us how Earth is gearing up for war with the Klingons and that should include some defense for your home planet.

Movies should make sense and character actions should be believable.
You hold all the other Trek films, TV shows, books, etc. that employ the same dramatic tactic (which is all that is) to the same high standard, right? Because, if so, that's a lot of Trek history --including some great films, episodes, and novels-- that you've just labeled as having an unrecoverable flaw.

I know the usual suspects are now going to whine about how they should be able to complain about a flaw in STiD without having to compare it to examples of the same flaws in prior Trek and blah blah blah, but I don't care.
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Old September 14 2013, 02:00 PM   #56
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Re: Re-writing the climax of STiD

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
Spacious argument.
If it's so spacious, does it mean there is room for different opinions?
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Old September 14 2013, 02:16 PM   #57
austen_pierce
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Re: Re-writing the climax of STiD

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
Spacious argument.
If it's so spacious, does it mean there is room for different opinions?

"You keep using that word. I don't it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya

However... I did also find it wierd that Enterprise 'fell' to Earth THROUGH the debris field. Somewhat of a head-scratcher.

I use my wife as a litmus test. If she see's a plot hole, it's noticeable enough for general audiences. She noticed this.
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Old September 14 2013, 02:26 PM   #58
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Re: Re-writing the climax of STiD

1. Vengeance jamming all comm channels to Earth, but the one to New Vulcan is directed away from Earth so gets through, Marcus/Khan deem it not worthy of attention.

2. Marcus is the head of Starfleet, and transmitted a stand-down signal to Starbase 1 and Luna Colony to ensure no one goes near them.

3. Marcus/Khan transmit a harzard warning hail that orders every available ship out of the hazard area immediately, scans from said ships show a debris field, they comply.

4. All warp signatures and hull profiles in the area are Starfleet, the Admirals flagship and Starfleets flagship, no one is sure what to do and await orders.

5. Marcus, before leaving the Sol system, ordered the fleet to a point nearer Klingon space. This when added to launching Vengeance, means Starfleet presumes a Klingon attack and one lightyears off, caught very off guard when both return to Sol.

6. It's a fucking movie and this has happened 100 times before now with no one making this much fuss.
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Old September 14 2013, 02:33 PM   #59
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Re: Re-writing the climax of STiD

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
1. Vengeance jamming all comm channels to Earth, but the one to New Vulcan is directed away from Earth so gets through, Marcus/Khan deem it not worthy of attention.
I mentioned Spock not contacting Earth when watching with my wife the other night and she made a very good point that I hadn't thought of: Spock simply didn't know who he could trust on Earth. Sending a distress call could've simply brought more ships loyal to Marcus to finish the job.


6. It's a fucking movie and this has happened 100 times before now with no one making this much fuss.
How dare you use past Trek's in your argument that this movie isn't an abomination against both Man and God!!!
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Old September 14 2013, 03:23 PM   #60
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Re: Re-writing the climax of STiD

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An abomination against both Man and God!!!
Then my work here is done.
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