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Old September 12 2013, 09:04 PM   #361
Marc
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote: View Post
InklingStar wrote: View Post
I am beginning to suspect that kirk55555 is actually Brian Herbert...
Or one of the many "prequelites" (the polite form of that term; there is a much more rude form which I won't use here) who infest the Dunenovels forum and drive the Orthodox Herbertarians away for lack of intelligent conversation.

Kirk55555
, how do you square Frank Herbert's assertion in Dune that Paul was born on Caladan with KJA/BH's nonsense that he was born on Kaitain? That was the first major bit of retconning that infuriated a lot of Dune readers. But unfortunately, it wasn't the last.
Geez any other franchise and authors who tried that sort of shit would be lynched.

I'm suprised they didn't retconn that he wasn't even an Atriedes.
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Old September 12 2013, 10:49 PM   #362
kirk55555
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Oh, I know that fanatical prequelites are immune to logic, or even the notion that it's disrespectful to dismiss a Hugo and Nebula award-winner's legacy as "in-universe propaganda."

I keep having a forlorn hope that these people can be taught to reason, instead of merely going for the lowest common denominator.
I have no idea what a "fanatical prequelite" is. I'm guessing someone who is fanatical about the BH/KJA books? I'm a fan of the series, but I don't follow it like I do stuff like Star trek or star wars. I don't usually have conversations about it, and I don't keep up with the fandom. I'm definately not "fanatical" about the BH/KJA books, I just happen to like them. I also couldn't care less about book awards, I know what the Hugo and Nebula awards are but when it comes to books I read they're not a factor, I really couldn't care less if a book/author I like has won an award, and I definately don't judge books on wether they've won a random award or not.

Also, I'd say that people who call BH/KJA's books the "lowest common denominator" are as "fanatical" about Frank Herbert's stuff as so called "prequelites" are. Its fine if you don't like them, but BH/KJA's stuff is far from the lowest common denominator.

As a side comment, I have no idea where the Orange Catholic Bible was created, but I really can't express in words how little I care. Nothing BH/KJA did screwed up the Dune Universe, and it almost always improved it. They didn't write the best books of the series, but they wrote some good stuff and in a style I honestly like better than Frank Herberts. You don't have to like their stuff, but I'm allowed to like them without getting browbeaten for it.
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Old September 12 2013, 11:01 PM   #363
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Marc wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
InklingStar wrote: View Post
I am beginning to suspect that kirk55555 is actually Brian Herbert...
Or one of the many "prequelites" (the polite form of that term; there is a much more rude form which I won't use here) who infest the Dunenovels forum and drive the Orthodox Herbertarians away for lack of intelligent conversation.

Kirk55555
, how do you square Frank Herbert's assertion in Dune that Paul was born on Caladan with KJA/BH's nonsense that he was born on Kaitain? That was the first major bit of retconning that infuriated a lot of Dune readers. But unfortunately, it wasn't the last.
Geez any other franchise and authors who tried that sort of shit would be lynched.

I'm suprised they didn't retconn that he wasn't even an Atriedes.
Technically they aren't Atreides, they are just descended from brain in a jar who called himself Agamemnon on the Dune equivalent of the internet.
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Old September 12 2013, 11:04 PM   #364
Timewalker
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Oh, I know that fanatical prequelites are immune to logic, or even the notion that it's disrespectful to dismiss a Hugo and Nebula award-winner's legacy as "in-universe propaganda."

I keep having a forlorn hope that these people can be taught to reason, instead of merely going for the lowest common denominator.
I have no idea what a "fanatical prequelite" is. I'm guessing someone who is fanatical about the BH/KJA books? I'm a fan of the series, but I don't follow it like I do stuff like Star trek or star wars. I don't usually have conversations about it, and I don't keep up with the fandom. I'm definately not "fanatical" about the BH/KJA books, I just happen to like them. I also couldn't care less about book awards, I know what the Hugo and Nebula awards are but when it comes to books I read they're not a factor, I really couldn't care less if a book/author I like has won an award, and I definately don't judge books on wether they've won a random award or not.
I define a "fanatical prequelite" as someone who accepts the crap KJA/BH produced as more accurate than what Frank Herbert himself wrote, ESPECIALLY if it contradicts FH. The fanaticism comes in when absolutely no amount of explaining and logic will convince them that KJA/BH got so many things wrong.

I'm not saying you have to like Hugo/Nebula Award-winning books. There are many books that won those awards that I don't like. But he's due some respect as an author, since those awards are anything but easy to win.

Also, I'd say that people who call BH/KJA's books the "lowest common denominator" are as "fanatical" about Frank Herbert's stuff as so called "prequelites" are. Its fine if you don't like them, but BH/KJA's stuff is far from the lowest common denominator.

As a side comment, I have no idea where the Orange Catholic Bible was created, but I really can't express in words how little I care. Nothing BH/KJA did screwed up the Dune Universe, and it almost always improved it. They didn't write the best books of the series, but they wrote some good stuff and in a style I honestly like better than Frank Herberts. You don't have to like their stuff, but I'm allowed to like them without getting browbeaten for it.
Okay, the lowest common denominator would be the fanfic based on KJA/BH's crap. Except their stuff isn't much above bad fanfic level to begin with.

The Orange Catholic Bible is important to the series because it came out of the Butlerian Jihad: "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of the human mind." Computers and anything like AI became anathema to the people of the Imperium - legally, morally, socially, spiritually. Humans themselves had to improve to make up for the convenience they gave up when they opted for no more computers.

But of course you'd know this if you bothered to read more than just the fight scenes and the "action."
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Old September 12 2013, 11:19 PM   #365
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I know all of that. I don't skim over reading the Dune books, even if the vision stuff becomes nonsensical. Everyone who has read Dune knows about why they don't make thinking machines. But its the idea thats important, not what book inside of the book the line was supposed to come from.

I'd say trying to convince people that its wrong to like books they enjoy just because you don't agree with what the books say is pretty fanatical. I like most of the BH/KJA books. I am not wrong to like them, anymore than you are wrong to dislike them. I don't care what problems some people have with them, I acknowledge that they do have some problems. It doesn't take away my enjoyment of them. Also, disliking the parts of Dune that take tangents that are sometimes borderline gibberish is just personal opinion. If other people see some deep philosophy out of attempting to translate Leto's vision stuff or what they hell Jessica was saying during Farad'n's "graduation", thats great and I'm glad you enjoy that. I totally admit that I read Dune for a good Sci Fi story, not the confusing and frequently unimportant to the story vision/philosophy stuff. I'm not a philosophy guy, I like good stories. I have never read anything based on its philosophy, I usually just don't care. Dune as a series (and including all of Frank Herbert's books) are good sci fi stories, regardless of the amount of "philosophy" and confusing/boring sections sections about visions that they have. Everyone gets different things from books, and what I read books for, good stories and characters, is no less valid that people who read books for some kind of philosophy conversation.

This isn't something you can "convince" me of, and I am definately not fanatical just because my take on the Dune series is different from yours. If I was trying to "convince" you that you were wrong, then I'd be a fanatic. I just think we have different opinions, and not the kinds that are open to being changed. Thats fine, I just don't feel like arguing over something like this. Call me what you like, I just enjoy what I enjoy in the Dune series. Neither of us is right or wrong.
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Old September 13 2013, 12:03 AM   #366
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

First off, how about a little levity. Seriously, click that link, the comic is pretty funny.

A while back, just for the hell of it I went to amazon and started looking up reviews of the prequel novels. Naturally when I went to the review section they were all negative, so I looked at only the five star reviews to get an idea of what some people see in them. What I found wasn't too surprising:

People who enjoyed the prequel novels were either people who A) Preferred the writing to Frank Herbert's deep philosophical passages, or B) Have never read the Frank Herbert books (one person was actually reading the books in chronological order, which I thought was kind of weird.

I only bring that up because their's a market for any book, no matter whether you find it good or bad, and I think it's a tad unfair to dump on Kirk55555 for liking something just because tries to go against what FH himself wrote (personally, I will choose to believe the backstory that FH gave us, since he came first. But that's just my opinion).
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Old September 13 2013, 06:25 AM   #367
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Aldo wrote: View Post
First off, how about a little levity. Seriously, click that link, the comic is pretty funny.
Christopher Walken has some advice for equine quadrupeds wishing to avoid such a peril.

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Old September 13 2013, 07:16 AM   #368
Timewalker
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
I know all of that. I don't skim over reading the Dune books, even if the vision stuff becomes nonsensical. Everyone who has read Dune knows about why they don't make thinking machines. But its the idea thats important, not what book inside of the book the line was supposed to come from.
I mentioned the Orange Catholic Bible because it's a basic part of the society and culture of the Imperium, as set out by Frank Herbert.

The thinking machines were computers, not Terminator-like robots. The Butlerian Jihad was Man Who Thinks Computers Are Fine vs Man Who Thinks Computers Are Evil. In short, it was a jihad based on ideas (with any computers along the way getting destroyed), not humans vs robots. That's not what Frank Herbert intended, and it really bugs me that these two twits dumbed down the series to the point that it's basically a Star Wars/Terminator ripoff (never mind that George Lucas himself ripped off parts of Dune for the original 3 Star Wars movies).

I'd say trying to convince people that its wrong to like books they enjoy just because you don't agree with what the books say is pretty fanatical. I like most of the BH/KJA books. I am not wrong to like them, anymore than you are wrong to dislike them. I don't care what problems some people have with them, I acknowledge that they do have some problems. It doesn't take away my enjoyment of them. Also, disliking the parts of Dune that take tangents that are sometimes borderline gibberish is just personal opinion. If other people see some deep philosophy out of attempting to translate Leto's vision stuff or what they hell Jessica was saying during Farad'n's "graduation", thats great and I'm glad you enjoy that. I totally admit that I read Dune for a good Sci Fi story, not the confusing and frequently unimportant to the story vision/philosophy stuff. I'm not a philosophy guy, I like good stories. I have never read anything based on its philosophy, I usually just don't care. Dune as a series (and including all of Frank Herbert's books) are good sci fi stories, regardless of the amount of "philosophy" and confusing/boring sections sections about visions that they have. Everyone gets different things from books, and what I read books for, good stories and characters, is no less valid that people who read books for some kind of philosophy conversation.
Look, I know some people read books that are less than Philosophically Elevated. A couple of librarian acquaintances of mine looked down their noses at me because I enjoy the Dumarest of Terra series (that's pure formulaic space opera adventure stuff). But E.C. Tubb didn't base it on someone else's far superior work and deliberately dumb it down so modern audiences (many of whom seem to have limited attention spans, else why would KJA/BH continually repeat the same plot points time and time again, like they figured people couldn't remember them past a couple of pages) could read Very Short Chapters inbetween texting, gaming, and watching TV and whatever else they do.

This isn't something you can "convince" me of, and I am definately not fanatical just because my take on the Dune series is different from yours. If I was trying to "convince" you that you were wrong, then I'd be a fanatic. I just think we have different opinions, and not the kinds that are open to being changed. Thats fine, I just don't feel like arguing over something like this. Call me what you like, I just enjoy what I enjoy in the Dune series. Neither of us is right or wrong.
I never said you couldn't like the things. Like whatever you damn please. Just don't tell me that the crap KJA/BH wrote is more accurate than what Frank Herbert - the CREATOR of the original novel and subsequent 5 novels - stated as canon.

Paul was not born on Kaitain. He did not run away to join the circus with Bronso of Ix. Duncan Idaho's first combat when serving under Duke Leto happened on Grumman. The Baron was fat because he deliberately made himself so, not because Gaius Helen Mohiam deliberately infected him with a disease. Duncan Idaho didn't "evolve" into anything, let alone the nonsense at the end of Sandworms of Dune. Some of his gholas had genetic tinkering done to his DNA, but that's not the same as evolving. Frank Herbert didn't intend anything remotely like Duncan/Will Decker melding with Erasmus/V'Ger (a ST:TMP ripoff).

And Marty and Daniel were not goddamn Omnius and Erasmus, they were Face Dancers! And Norma Cenva didn't go around saving her chosen protagonists in Every. Damn. Book.
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Old September 13 2013, 09:19 AM   #369
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Paul was not born on Kaitain. He did not run away to join the circus with Bronso of Ix. Duncan Idaho's first combat when serving under Duke Leto happened on Grumman. The Baron was fat because he deliberately made himself so, not because Gaius Helen Mohiam deliberately infected him with a disease. Duncan Idaho didn't "evolve" into anything, let alone the nonsense at the end of Sandworms of Dune. Some of his gholas had genetic tinkering done to his DNA, but that's not the same as evolving. Frank Herbert didn't intend anything remotely like Duncan/Will Decker melding with Erasmus/V'Ger (a ST:TMP ripoff).

And Marty and Daniel were not goddamn Omnius and Erasmus, they were Face Dancers! And Norma Cenva didn't go around saving her chosen protagonists in Every. Damn. Book.
QFT -- I can only think that P&tB have wrapped FH in copper wire, have placed him in a magnetic field, and are using him to generate electricity.
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Old September 13 2013, 10:35 AM   #370
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

To be fair to BH/KJA (if such a thing possible), there are some elements of their books I quite liked. Paul of Dune (I think, going from memory) has some nice imaginings of Caladan, and I liked the Fenring/Margot/Marie troika. And bad as Hunters and Sandworms are, I can't help but enjoy seeing some of the original characters resurrected.

Though this is still my favourite non-FH Dune:

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Old September 13 2013, 12:20 PM   #371
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I have no problem with homage -- only with desecration. Lucky for the pair of them that I can't be arsed to start a jihad.
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Old September 13 2013, 06:28 PM   #372
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

The Lord of the Rings grew out of J.R.R. Tolkien's story that he created to service his creation of a language. The whole legendarium was written to show how the language could evolve and spread and change through time. The fact that it ended up being epic fantasy is bonus.

Dune grew out of Frank Herbert's demonstration of the powers and limits of prescience, the dangers of religion and state becoming intertwined, and the unanswerable questions of free will versus determinism. The fact that it ended up being epic sci-fi is bonus.

What I mean is that the philosophy that some find boring is the heart of the story! The action is just there as a consequence of the philosophical ideas that are being explored.
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Old September 13 2013, 06:51 PM   #373
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote: View Post
I never said you couldn't like the things. Like whatever you damn please. Just don't tell me that the crap KJA/BH wrote is more accurate than what Frank Herbert - the CREATOR of the original novel and subsequent 5 novels - stated as canon.

Paul was not born on Kaitain. He did not run away to join the circus with Bronso of Ix. Duncan Idaho's first combat when serving under Duke Leto happened on Grumman. The Baron was fat because he deliberately made himself so, not because Gaius Helen Mohiam deliberately infected him with a disease. Duncan Idaho didn't "evolve" into anything, let alone the nonsense at the end of Sandworms of Dune. Some of his gholas had genetic tinkering done to his DNA, but that's not the same as evolving. Frank Herbert didn't intend anything remotely like Duncan/Will Decker melding with Erasmus/V'Ger (a ST:TMP ripoff).

And Marty and Daniel were not goddamn Omnius and Erasmus, they were Face Dancers! And Norma Cenva didn't go around saving her chosen protagonists in Every. Damn. Book.
More acurate? I just say that I count what they wrote as canon for the series. Like everything else, what you consider canon is a completely personal choice. I think what they wrote about stuff made more sense than some of FH stuff. An evolved Idaho saving humanity is preferable to me than some vague, nonsensical "golden path". I also think that the baron being fat because of disease was a great addition, and was basically everything from the House books. Its just my opinion, I can count whatever I want as canon. I just happen to accept BH/KJA books, and when they contradict FH stuff, I go with what they say because I usually like it better. You don't have to agree, and I'm not going to argue about it. This is literally just opinion at this point. I'm not wrong to count them as canon, but it doesn't mean you have to, and my decision doesn't affect you at all. It apparently annoys you, but I really can't help that.

InklingStar wrote: View Post
The Lord of the Rings grew out of J.R.R. Tolkien's story that he created to service his creation of a language. The whole legendarium was written to show how the language could evolve and spread and change through time. The fact that it ended up being epic fantasy is bonus.


Dune grew out of Frank Herbert's demonstration of the powers and limits of prescience, the dangers of religion and state becoming intertwined, and the unanswerable questions of free will versus determinism. The fact that it ended up being epic sci-fi is bonus.


What I mean is that the philosophy that some find boring is the heart of the story! The action is just there as a consequence of the philosophical ideas that are being explored.

I really don't care what he intended. Everyone gets something different out of works like Dune. I get an epic sci fi story with some annoying philosophy thrown in. In the end, the author's intentions for their book are secondary to what the readers get out of it. It doesn't matter what he was trying to do, its what I got out of what he did that matters to me.
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Old September 13 2013, 07:58 PM   #374
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

kirk55555 wrote: View Post


I really don't care what he intended. Everyone gets something different out of works like Dune. I get an epic sci fi story with some annoying philosophy thrown in. In the end, the author's intentions for their book are secondary to what the readers get out of it. It doesn't matter what he was trying to do, its what I got out of what he did that matters to me.
I get what you're saying I enjoyed Jurrasic Park for similar reasons: I got a lush travelogue with descriptions of the Island with some annoying Dinosaurs put in.

I read up on the differences between Frank's novels and the prequel novels. And well, even though I've read up on peoples disappointments with them in the past, I was surprised at just how much inconsistencies they've created. Do they even understand what the word prequel means?

It's what most people have been saying, they've used the Dune universe as a backdrop to write their scifi stories.
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Old September 13 2013, 11:34 PM   #375
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

lurok wrote: View Post
To be fair to BH/KJA (if such a thing possible), there are some elements of their books I quite liked. Paul of Dune (I think, going from memory) has some nice imaginings of Caladan, and I liked the Fenring/Margot/Marie troika. And bad as Hunters and Sandworms are, I can't help but enjoy seeing some of the original characters resurrected.

Though this is still my favourite non-FH Dune:

Ever read Nat'l Lampoon's Doon? It has some funny funny stuff for the first half, before it runs out of steam, and there are some decent gags like calling him the Kumquat HagenDasz.

Herbert's stuff really lends itself to parody, just in terms of syllables. I can't hear Elton John's Bennie & the Jets without thinking he is singing Bene Gesserit.

Then again I'm also the guy who spent 30 years thinking Billy Idol's EYES WITHOUT A FACE was HOWZABOUT A DATE?
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