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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old September 13 2013, 03:32 PM   #16
RandyS
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Noddy wrote: View Post
This is certainly what is strongly implied in "Turnabout Intruder", via Dr. Janice Lester's dialogue. But since we now know that there were female commanding officers in Starfleet well before this time, as well as after, how we reevaluate what this episode states?
In the real world: Erika Hernandez maybe have been 100 years older, but still didn't exist yet.

In the Star Trek world: Lester was a loon.
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Old September 13 2013, 03:33 PM   #17
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

galad2003 wrote: View Post
Fast forward to the late 90's & early 2000's when Voyager/Enterprise aired and the idea of a females in position of authority is pretty well accepted - so women have already been shown to command starships.
That could be the "in universe" explaination, Human society when through a period (however long) where women were simply not placed in positions of authority, decades pass and society altered and women in charge of starships was acceptible.

Even today in 2013, for a women to be in command of a naval combatant is rare.

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Old September 13 2013, 03:51 PM   #18
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
galad2003 wrote: View Post
Fast forward to the late 90's & early 2000's when Voyager/Enterprise aired and the idea of a females in position of authority is pretty well accepted - so women have already been shown to command starships.
That could be the "in universe" explaination, Human society when through a period (however long) where women were simply not placed in positions of authority, decades pass and society altered and women in charge of starships was acceptible.

Even today in 2013, for a women to be in command of a naval combatant is rare.

Which would seem odd as we've seen Number One as XO, Nancy Hedford as a Federation Commissioner, Areel Shaw as a prosecutor and even Lester herself as an expedition leader.
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Old September 13 2013, 03:55 PM   #19
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
galad2003 wrote: View Post
Fast forward to the late 90's & early 2000's when Voyager/Enterprise aired and the idea of a females in position of authority is pretty well accepted - so women have already been shown to command starships.
That could be the "in universe" explaination, Human society when through a period (however long) where women were simply not placed in positions of authority, decades pass and society altered and women in charge of starships was acceptible.

Even today in 2013, for a women to be in command of a naval combatant is rare.

Which would seem odd as we've seen Number One as XO, Nancy Hedford as a Federation Commissioner, Areel Shaw as a prosecutor and even Lester herself as an expedition leader.
Which, regardless of Roddenberry's intent, leads me to believe that Lester is simply batshit crazy and there are women in command of Starfleet ships and installations.
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Old September 13 2013, 04:09 PM   #20
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
Attitudes were different, certainly, and usually not what we'd call enlightened: ("One day [Lt. Palamas will] find the right man and off she'll go, out of the service"). But in the very first episode filmed, while Pike was gone, Number One was in command of the Enterprise, in effect the captain. That's a fairly strong, positive start; too bad it wasn't expanded upon in the course of the series.
While Number One was certainly awesome in how she took command and everyone else followed right beside her, it got kind of... sidetracked when she was kidnapped and used as a potential mate for Pike. Also, Vina saying that she can't go back with Pike because she's not beautiful I find quite offensive. You're not worth much if you're not beautiful, and your intelligence makes you a good choice for breeding stock.
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Old September 13 2013, 04:09 PM   #21
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Even today in 2013, for a women to be in command of a naval combatant is rare.
In sheer numbers, maybe, but according to the latest USN info I can find women command 11 combatants, which if you exclude submarines (not open to women till last year) comes out to about 7% of the active fleet. Which happens to be the same percentage as female unrestricted line officers in the navy.

http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-np...tatistics.aspx

http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-np...%202013(2).pdf
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Old September 13 2013, 05:30 PM   #22
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

I put it down to Janice Lester refusing to admit she was unfit, and made it (in her mind) a sexist conspiracy. Trek had to live in it's time, even as it pushed the envelope, so it could only push so far.
On the subject of Lt Palamas, even today, many women go to college just to earn their MRS, and we see some of that in the military, too. Not saying it's the reason for that line, or that it's right.
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Old September 13 2013, 05:43 PM   #23
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

With this sort of thing, as with stuff like the technology designs of TOS vs. Enterprise or the Abramsverse, we should be careful to distinguish what was a product of the era in which the show was made with what counts as a "real" part of the Trek future. Whatever we see onscreen is not an actual broadcast from an alternate reality; it's a fictional construct representing a conjectural reality, and what we see is filtered and interpreted through the attitudes of the creators and the resources they have available. Roddenberry himself treated TOS as an imperfect approximation of the "real" Trek future, e.g. when he had the Klingons redesigned in TMP and asked fans to assume they'd always looked that way, or when his TMP novelization's prologue pretended that TOS was an inaccurately larger-than-life 23rd-century dramatization of Kirk's true adventures.

So just because '60s gender attitudes snuck into TOS episodes here and there, that doesn't mean we have to believe those attitudes have somehow made a resurgence in the future, any more than we have to believe that rotating-drum chronometers and computers that clatter like teletypes are the state of the art 250 years from now. We can just recognize them as an idiosyncrasy of the interpretation and feel free to reinterpret them.
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Old September 13 2013, 06:26 PM   #24
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
T'Girl;8639629[B wrote:
Human society when through a period (however long) where women were simply not placed in positions of authority[/B]
Which would seem odd as we've seen Number One as XO, Nancy Hedford as a Federation Commissioner, Areel Shaw as a prosecutor and even Lester herself as an expedition leader.
There is a supposition among some fans that Number One wasn't human, and Shaw was in a support field.

There also the fact that the Enterprise's crew wasn't a fifty-fifty split of men and women, women were for some reason just a third of the crew. So there is something going on there.

But if you believe that the Enterprise's crew included a large number of aliens, some humanoid in appearence and others unseen non-humanoids, then the crew might be one-third male, one-third female, and one-third "other."



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Old September 13 2013, 08:22 PM   #25
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Well Roddenberry claimed that the network made him change that because "it would make it look as if there's a lot of fooling around going on up there."

Don't know how true it is. But it's what he said in that "Inside Star Trek" album he made in the 70s.
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Old September 13 2013, 08:43 PM   #26
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
T'Girl;8639629[B wrote:
Human society when through a period (however long) where women were simply not placed in positions of authority[/B]
Which would seem odd as we've seen Number One as XO, Nancy Hedford as a Federation Commissioner, Areel Shaw as a prosecutor and even Lester herself as an expedition leader.
There is a supposition among some fans that Number One wasn't human, and Shaw was in a support field.
None of the background info says Number One was an alien and if she was she would still be female. The Talosians sure thought so. Shaw was an attorney who worked a prosecutor, that may be "support" but it's not answering the phone or rolling bandages.

There also the fact that the Enterprise's crew wasn't a fifty-fifty split of men and women, women were for some reason just a third of the crew. So there is something going on there.

But if you believe that the Enterprise's crew included a large number of aliens, some humanoid in appearence and others unseen non-humanoids, then the crew might be one-third male, one-third female, and one-third "other
Why would the crew have to be fifty fifty? Another ship might have a crew where the majority is female. I would hope Starfleet didn't assign crew by taking one from column A and one from column B ( and possibly C) till they had a full compliment.
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Old September 14 2013, 12:14 AM   #27
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Even with Number One, we have Pike's line, "You're different, of course."
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Old September 14 2013, 12:22 AM   #28
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Christopher wrote: View Post
(I think Lee Meriwether could've made a good Number One.)
She was on the short list (although I think there was little doubt that Roddenberry's mistress would end up with the role).

TO: Kerwin Coughlin
From: Gene Roddenberry
CC: Herb Solow
Date: October 14, 1964
Subject: STAR TREK CASTING

Here are some of the names which have been considered or suggested by anyone for the various STAR TREK roles:

ROBERT APRIL: Paul Mantee, Tom Tryon, Robert Webber, Robert Wright, Rod Taylore, Jack Lord, Richard Egan, James Coburn, Leslie Nielson, Robert Horton, Earl Holliman, Robert Loggia, James Donald, Sterling Hayden, Larry Blyden, Steve Forrest, Jason Evers, John Russell, Patrick O’Neal, Liam Sullivan, Jeff Hunter, Howard Duff, Mike Forrest, Warren Stevens, Skip Hemier, Rhodes Reason.

MISTER SPOCK: Leonard Nimoy, Rex Holman, DeForest Kelly, Michael Dunn.

JOSE TYLER: Joby Baker, Marc Cavell, Victor Arnold, Robert Brown, Joe Bova, Ross Martin, Richard Jaeckel, Bruce Dern.

DOCTOR BOYCE: Martin Gabel, Paul Stewart, Edward Binns, Jim Gergory.

NUMBER ONE: Magel Barrett, Lee Meriweather, Jeanne Bal, Sarah Shane.

COLT: Jennifer Stuart, Shary Marshall, Joyce Meadows, Jill Ireland, Audrey Dalton, Fay Spain, Joan Huntington.
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Old September 14 2013, 12:40 AM   #29
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Ooh, Rod Taylor as Robert April. That would've been cool. Leslie Nielsen in the role would've been interesting too.

Anyone know who Sarah Shane was/is?
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Old September 14 2013, 12:45 AM   #30
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

I would guess this actress: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0788080/

The memo is filled with names that are spelled wrong, so it isn't a stretch to imagine that Roddenberry meant Sara Shane. Haven't seen any of the films in her filmography, though (which, interestingly enough, ends in 1964, when the first pilot was shot).
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