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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old September 13 2013, 09:38 AM   #151
Maurice
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Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Angling walls so they're not perpendicular or parallel isn't really forced perspective as such, but it is a common way to design a three-wall set to be more camera friendly.
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Old September 13 2013, 02:35 PM   #152
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Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

@Maurice - when I was re-creating the TCOTK obs deck the walls got further apart as they approached the camera. Because the walls were not parallel to each other I had to move the obs deck ahead of the visible flight deck. It still has the exterior wall flush against the outer hull so they have the exterior windows but the interior that looks into the flight deck is angled in.
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Old September 13 2013, 02:37 PM   #153
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Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Maurice wrote: View Post
Angling walls so they're not perpendicular or parallel isn't really forced perspective as such, but it is a common way to design a three-wall set to be more camera friendly.
An earlier version I had "corrected" the angle to make it parallel. When I revisited it, I went for a more accurate approach and left it angled. YMMV on how you would recreate it.
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Old September 13 2013, 05:50 PM   #154
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Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

BTW, I'm not saying the set wasn't built with angled walls. That's fairly apparent.
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Old September 14 2013, 05:50 PM   #155
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Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

I suspect there is not perfect answer. Each must make his own choice of which details he honors and which he sacrifices.

My own approach was to hold on to Jefferies stated 947' length, and his cross section showing the hangar aft of the pylons.

I could never get over the Franz Joseph depiction of the pylons just sticking on to the exterior skin of the hull. I realize that the warp engines' main function is not to generate thrust, but just taking into account the amount of shaking around and even atmospheric friction the ship encounters they must have a pretty robust connection.

I also took to heart Jefferies' location of Engineering on the Phase II cross section. It is still right in front of the hangar (even though the pylon connection points have changed during the refit).

All the above led me to the conclusion that the hangar deck model, whether actually forced perspective or not, was built as it was, primarily, to fit a camera into its end and still have room to pour light in around it. In short I decided not to take too literally what the miniature was, and instead focussed on how the miniature looked.

Admittedly, the hangar that meets all the above requirements does not look exactly like what we saw onscreen. Only a very wide angle virtual lens, placed outside the physical confines of the hangar, can give you similar views. But then, again, the camera that filmed the actual footage was outside that mythical "fourth wall" looking in, too.

Finally, one further point you might consider if you decide to make the hanger as long and conical as the miniature: Where are the windows we see from the outside of the secondary hull if there is only a little wall space between the hangar interior and interior? Unless there is an increasing amount of space between the walls as you go forward, there is apparently no way they can be windows at all.

The amazing thing about all of this, is that the calibre of work that Jefferies and the rest of the production crew of TOS accomplished still inspires and rewards efforts like these forty years later. The quality of work done by fans like Petri, Blssdwlf, Warped9 and many others is nothing short of wonderful.

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Old September 14 2013, 09:20 PM   #156
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Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

^^^Yup. Movie and TV sets and models are rarely built to be realistically proportioned. They're built to be practical shooting environments because the only important thing (nitpicky fans aside) is if it looks good on the screen and you can tell your story in it.

I know there are those who disagree with me, but after using the Photoshop perspective tool on the Jefferies cutaway it's more obvious than ever to me that the drawing is in forced perspective (even of the model Datin built might not have been). There are too many "tells" that are readily apparent to anyone whose done serious perspective drawing and worked to accurately scale details towards or away from vanishing points.
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Old September 14 2013, 11:02 PM   #157
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Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

^But we now know from the information provided above that the miniature was not built in forced perspective, so maybe that was a test drawing, a rejected proposal for how to build the miniature.
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Old September 15 2013, 06:42 AM   #158
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Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

MGagen wrote: View Post
I suspect there is not perfect answer. Each must make his own choice of which details he honors and which he sacrifices.
I'm very much in agreement with this.
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Old September 15 2013, 11:32 AM   #159
Robert Comsol
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Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

MGagen wrote: View Post
I also took to heart Jefferies' location of Engineering on the Phase II cross section. It is still right in front of the hangar (even though the pylon connection points have changed during the refit).
Sounds like a cross-section I've never seen. All I'm aware of is a rough cross section with a couple of vertical structures where the only discernible thing is the shuttlebay.
How do we know that Jefferies envisioned the engine room to be right in front of the shuttlebay?

Bob
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Old September 15 2013, 03:54 PM   #160
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Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

MGagen, is this the one you're referring to?



You can see a new hatch is indicated between the new nacelles struts above the newly-expanded room there, and the circular yellow marking on the bottom of the hull seems to be correspondingly moved, too. That's even more apparent on this compliation put together by Shaw:



I think that's why many people (myself included) think the vertical core would have been put there.
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Old September 15 2013, 08:21 PM   #161
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Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Fascinating!

According to the Datin dimensions the shuttlebay model would have a length of 122' or 37.2 meters in real life.

The Jefferies cross-section would suggest that the observation corridor began somewhere around 356' and ends at the stern at 478'. That's exactly 122'!

Although Matt Jefferies had suggested a shorter length in his The Making of Star Trek TOS cross-section his Phase II cross-section now obviously tells us that he accepted and approved the bigger VFX model and authenticated its dimensions by reflecting these in his "new" cross-section.

Regarding the circular "hatch" I'm somewhat unable to link this one to the Mike Minor intermix shaft. We have other vertical structures in the cross section but none corresponding with the yellow circle, which has moved considerably further stern compared to the TOS Enterprise.

It almost appears there's extra storage in the vicinity above the observation corridor for small shuttles or Probert Workbees but not an engineering room.

And the length of the engineering hull has almost jumped from 340' (TOS Enterprise at 947' O.L. without main sensor) to 478'. Is there something I missed?

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; September 15 2013 at 08:36 PM.
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Old September 15 2013, 08:22 PM   #162
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Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
It almost appears there's extra storage in the vicinity above the observation corridor for small shuttles or Probert Workbees.
Funny, I just commented on that space in the thread about the supposed Phase II MSD.
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Old September 15 2013, 08:50 PM   #163
Robert Comsol
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Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Apparently we were on different "pages" but for once we are on the same "page". Sounds encouraging.

Bob
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Old September 17 2013, 05:19 AM   #164
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Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Praetor wrote: View Post
MGagen, is this the one you're referring to?
Perhaps, but it is incomplete. Here are a couple of details from the original:





As you'll note, the engineering section is actually labelled. Also, the hangar features more original detail. Finally, there is a legend that gives the precise coordinates for Engineering, Hangar Deck and Shuttlecraft Storage and Maintenence.

Notice especially that the deck in Engineering is called out as 2 feet lower than the hangar deck (which is on the centerline of the hull). One final item of note is the elliptical profile of the hangar doors. An interesting detail, that.

M.
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Old September 17 2013, 05:40 AM   #165
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Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
And the length of the engineering hull has almost jumped from 340' (TOS Enterprise at 947' O.L. without main sensor) to 478'. Is there something I missed?
It helps to know how Jefferies laid out his coordinates for the Enterprise. Here is a quick graphic and some example locations (all coordinates are in feet)…


So according to Jefferies, the secondary hull is 343 feet long… 3 feet longer than the TOS Enterprise secondary hull without the deflector dish.
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