RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,680
Posts: 5,430,370
Members: 24,827
Currently online: 413
Newest member: Sb118_James


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Tech

Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 13 2013, 12:27 AM   #1
Praetor
Vice Admiral
 
Praetor's Avatar
 
Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

In my Google travels, I just came across this for sale - purportedly a replica prop from Star Trek Phase II.

Here's the sample image:



IMO, it's really quite good. They've placed the engine room exactly where Mr. Jefferies original Phase II diagram (as extrapolated by Shaw) suggests it should be, and unless I'm mistaken they have the old engine room up ahead of the impulse engines. I quite like the primordial take on the intermix chamber, which isn't quite linear. (For those not familiar with the Phase II engine room, here's Mike Minor's concept painting, and here's the incomplete set.)

I'd love to get a look at that TOS diagram in the inset, too.

I don't suppose we'd be lucky enough to have the maker of this lovely image amongst our membership?
__________________
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q
Praetor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2013, 04:49 AM   #2
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

"This is a fan-made reproduction of the Master Systems Display (aka "MSD") of the Refit Enterprise from Gene Roddenberry's failed second TOS series. This graphic shows what the internal layout of the ship could've been like. I am currently working on converting an AMT/Ertl TMP Enterprise (1979 release, smooth hull detailing) to accompany this piece."
I think it's safe to say there there was no MSD per se for Phase II from which to make a "reproduction". Looks like someone took Jefferies' simple cutaway and plugged in a ton of detail a la an Okuda MSD. Nice work, but to call it a "reproduction" is misleading.
__________________
* * *
"If you wanted to get a good meeting... just go in and
say 'darker, grittier, sexier' and whatever."
—Glen Larson, 2010
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2013, 09:55 AM   #3
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

Perhaps it was made for the Phase II fan series? In their last vignette, they upgraded their Enterprise to resemble (at least externally) the one planned for the unmade "real" Phase II.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2013, 12:40 PM   #4
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

Praetor wrote: View Post
They've placed the engine room exactly where Mr. Jefferies original Phase II diagram (as extrapolated by Shaw) suggests it should be.
I'm really not aware that that is where Matt Jefferies suggested it to be.

On the contrary I'm rather confident that the vertical shaft connecting engineering and saucer hull had been considered by MJ to be a power line (and not a turbo shaft) as early as the TOS schematic in the bridge alcove.

There's also a Phase II pre-production sketch (where did I misplace that? ) that clearly shows the "Mike Minor" reaction pods in the bow of the engineering hull and hints the vertical intermix chamber coil we'd come to see in TMP.

I did contact Andrew Probert on the issue. He wrote me back that the vertical intermix shaft was already there we he joined the production. He couldn't say whether this had been a Mike Minor or Matt Jefferies idea but given the match with the supposed "turbo shaft" I think it was really MJ who put it there.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2013, 05:13 PM   #5
Praetor
Vice Admiral
 
Praetor's Avatar
 
Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

Maurice wrote: View Post
I think it's safe to say there there was no MSD per se for Phase II from which to make a "reproduction". Looks like someone took Jefferies' simple cutaway and plugged in a ton of detail a la an Okuda MSD. Nice work, but to call it a "reproduction" is misleading.
Totally agreed.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Perhaps it was made for the Phase II fan series? In their last vignette, they upgraded their Enterprise to resemble (at least externally) the one planned for the unmade "real" Phase II.
I wondered that, myself. They date it as Star Trek: Phase II, 1977, though.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I'm really not aware that that is where Matt Jefferies suggested it to be.

On the contrary I'm rather confident that the vertical shaft connecting engineering and saucer hull had been considered by MJ to be a power line (and not a turbo shaft) as early as the TOS schematic in the bridge alcove.
I knew if I said "exactly" I was getting myself into trouble. Still, you must admit it makes a lot of sense eh?

Part of the reason I feel so confident, at least about the location of the Phase II engine room, is the added square hatch between the two nacelle struts - which to me seems to correspond exactly to where the Mike Minor intermix chamber might be. Working back from that, we might suppose that this would replace the previous engine room.

YMMV, naturally.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
There's also a Phase II pre-production sketch (where did I misplace that? ) that clearly shows the "Mike Minor" reaction pods in the bow of the engineering hull and hints the vertical intermix chamber coil we'd come to see in TMP.
Fascinating. I'd love to see that.
__________________
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q
Praetor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2013, 05:54 PM   #6
Darkwing
Commodore
 
Location: This dry land thing is too wierd!
Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

The location between the nacelles makes a lot of sense, but I prefer the forward location. It allows more room for the fly-in cargo hold and avoids having the linear intermix reactor just forward of the shuttle bay, making it less vulnerable.
__________________
If you don’t drink the kool-aid, you’re a baaad person - Rev Jim Jones
Almond kool-aid, anyone? Or do you prefer pudding?- Darkwing
Darkwing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2013, 06:01 PM   #7
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

That the vertical engine element was fully constructed for Phase II is pretty well documented, especially since there's test footage shot around it.

I've never seen any kind of production cutaway drawing from Phase II that indicated any specific interior details other than the hangar deck and one small room in the saucer, and certainly not one showing anything like the Minor-designed engine.
__________________
* * *
"If you wanted to get a good meeting... just go in and
say 'darker, grittier, sexier' and whatever."
—Glen Larson, 2010
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14 2013, 12:48 AM   #8
GSchnitzer
Co-Executive Producer
 
GSchnitzer's Avatar
 
Location: Gaithersburg, Maryland, USA, Terra
Send a message via AIM to GSchnitzer Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to GSchnitzer Send a message via Yahoo to GSchnitzer
Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Perhaps it was made for the Phase II fan series? In their last vignette, they upgraded their Enterprise to resemble (at least externally) the one planned for the unmade "real" Phase II.
No. It's not from us.
__________________
Greg Schnitzer
Co-Executive Producer
Star Trek Phase II
http://www.startrekphase2.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3348883/
GSchnitzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14 2013, 03:18 AM   #9
Nightowl1701
Commander
 
Location: Orlando, FL
Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

Best guess: This was intended to be on the back wall of Fleet Admiral Nogura's office in San Francisco (where a scene from the October 1977 pilot script 'In Thy Image' was set), to give viewers a taste of how much the Enterprise had been altered before they saw the 'new' ship itself. They were pretty far into construction of the sets when the decision was made to turn 'In Thy Image' into TMP (and put Taylor/Probert to work on redesigning the redesigned Enterprise) - even if Nogura's office itself wasn't put together, props were likely being made for it.
Nightowl1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14 2013, 04:16 AM   #10
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

I doubt it's actually from the period. The concept of MSDs didn't really exist yet -- I think the only cutaway profile of that type we saw as set graphics prior to TNG (not counting the schematic in "Day of the Dove") was in the turbolift in TMP and after. Also, from what I can make out, the inset cutaway of the pre-refit 1701 bears a resemblance to the Doug Drexler "In a Mirror, Darkly" cutaway.

Besides, why would Nogura have had a cross-section of just one ship on his office wall?
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14 2013, 04:39 AM   #11
Nightowl1701
Commander
 
Location: Orlando, FL
Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

For the same reason Admiral Marcus had a model of the Vengeance sitting behind his desk, perhaps?

Besides, that's a Starfleet Command logo on the left side, and the typeface of 'Constitution Refit' and the minimalist white-on-black display also fits what we've seen of the recycled console displays that made it from Phase II to TMP/TWOK. It just...feels right, somehow.
Nightowl1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14 2013, 04:49 AM   #12
Praetor
Vice Admiral
 
Praetor's Avatar
 
Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

It has to be a fake. A good fake, but a fake nonetheless.
__________________
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q
Praetor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14 2013, 05:36 PM   #13
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
Besides, that's a Starfleet Command logo on the left side, and the typeface of 'Constitution Refit' and the minimalist white-on-black display also fits what we've seen of the recycled console displays that made it from Phase II to TMP/TWOK. It just...feels right, somehow.
Which is exactly what someone trying to create a fake would intend.

I mean, think about it. If this were intended as some kind of MSD, why would it have an inset of the old design? It looks more like somebody found a comparison cutaway drawing on the Internet and faked it up to look like an MSD graphic.

It's also worth noting that "Constitution" was not officially established as the class name of Kirk's ship until TNG. It had been suggested by various production documents and fan references, but it wasn't official at the time of Phase II.

Also, the version of the UFP seal there is not the same one used in TMP graphics. I checked by Star Trek: The Motion Picture Peel-Off Graphics Book by Lee Cole, and the UFP logo she designed for TMP had smaller "laurel leaves" that only went about halfway up the circle, and the "United Federation of Planets" around the outside was on the top in larger print. It's similar enough that maybe it could've been an early draft, but different enough to make me skeptical.

I looked at the original link, and the text says it's "a fan-made reproduction of the Master Systems Display (aka "MSD") of the Refit Enterprise from Gene Roddenberry's failed second TOS series." Now, that's highly questionable right there, because as I said, the term "MSD" did not exist until TNG. It's a failure of research at best. If they use a term that didn't exist at the time, then why should we trust anything else about the claim? Especially when it admits that it's fan-made. Maybe they're just wrongly assuming it's a replica of a real prop, or maybe they're falsely trying to pass off something from a fan's imagination as something that was part of an actual production.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14 2013, 05:59 PM   #14
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

Also, had this MSD existed by the time of the TMP production, they rather would have used this one for the screen graphics than using the stuff of Franz Joseph.

And according to the official TMP blueprints the movie Enterprise belonged to the "Starship Class II" and the "new Enterprise Class".

I'm not aware that TNG officially established "Constitution Class" for the TOS Enterprise.
I've just compiled plenty of evidence in the "Enterprise-A" tech thread that we might be looking at a lot of confusion here.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14 2013, 06:57 PM   #15
TIN_MAN
Fleet Captain
 
TIN_MAN's Avatar
 
Re: Where'd This Phase II Cutaway Come From...?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Also, had this MSD existed by the time of the TMP production, they rather would have used this one for the screen graphics than using the stuff of Franz Joseph.
Not necessarily, keep in mind that V’ger’s scan of the “E’s” computer memory included all of star fleet’s technical and Tactical data, not just the “E’s” info, therefore the display of the “Constitution”, which at the time would have still been typical of most of the fleet and relatively up to date, would not be surprising, and quite in keeping with the dialogue in the scene.

Anywho, I came across this graphic a year or so ago, even posted a thread about it, and as I recall it had been made for a fan film and there was no attempt by those involved to dupe the public by passing it off as an actual piece of phase II set dressing, or even a reproduction of same.
TIN_MAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:13 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.