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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old September 12 2013, 01:45 PM   #121
Shane Houston
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

Scout101 wrote: View Post
if absolutely everything is spoiler coded, and it's limited to just thumbs up/down, would there be a community worth saving? If the community can't talk about the new book that most of us just read, what's the point? We ALREADY take steps to protect the late arrivals, but at some point, something has to give. JWolf wants to use Destiny as an example, but if you can't even talk about a book that came out 5 years ago without spoiler Nazis complaining about not coding things, what's left to discuss? That book was forever ago, and if you're ~30 books behind, do you have reasonable expectations of ever catching up? If you do, religiously following a forum where people are years ahead of you is a BAD idea. Or only search out threads for books you've completed. Going past that is on YOU, you took a risk KNOWING the thread was past your reading level. How much consideration should others take that someone else will purposely damage themselves and blame us for it?

Why is personal responsibility not a consideration, and it's on everyone else to watch out for YOU? Consider the Trek Lit forum the first level of spoiler code. Go past that, you take a small risk of seeing something you don't want to. Go past THAT and click a link to a spoiler review thread for a book you haven't read? Not much we could do to save you there. The big spoilers, even in there, are often coded. Short of coding the entire forum, what more do you want? And then you'd just click on that and blame us for not being cryptic enough anyway...

How have we driven you away, if you're still posting in here prolifically? And for bashing people for not knowing how to use spoiler code, seems you should learn to multi-quote.
I agree with you 100 percent. Good comments. Let me take the argument one step further. What about aired episodes of Trek? Should we have to use spoiler code to discuss episodes of the live action series and the movies? I mean, there may be some folks out there that haven't watched all 800 hours of Trek. Should we force all the other forums to use spoiler code for episodes that came out 20 years ago? You would indeed have a board full of spoiler code and no discussion.

I know there is a certain amount of common sense and respect for people who may have not read all of the books. But you cannot expect to one, insult people on one hand and call them assholes for not doing what you demand, and then expect them to listen to your arguments.
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Old September 12 2013, 02:55 PM   #122
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

Deano2099 wrote: View Post
I'm sure glad you weren't alive during slavery.
I'm Indian. I'd have been a slave myself.

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Old September 12 2013, 04:42 PM   #123
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

Deano2099 wrote: View Post
I'm sure glad you weren't alive during slavery.
I find it very hard to take your argument seriously when you compare spoiling a Star Trek book to the enslavement of entire races of human beings.

Halliwell wrote: View Post
I agree with you 100 percent. Good comments. Let me take the argument one step further. What about aired episodes of Trek? Should we have to use spoiler code to discuss episodes of the live action series and the movies? I mean, there may be some folks out there that haven't watched all 800 hours of Trek. Should we force all the other forums to use spoiler code for episodes that came out 20 years ago? You would indeed have a board full of spoiler code and no discussion.
I have only seen about a dozen episodes of TOS, but I don't expect people to use spoiler codes to discuss them, just because I haven't seen them.
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Old September 12 2013, 06:10 PM   #124
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

Pavonis wrote: View Post
I'll admit I'm not a fan of the mystery genre. I will watch them on television, but usually only once. The entire genre relies too much on the plot revelation of "whodunnit". The challenge in solving it before or with the characters has its appeal, but I'm a scientist, and already faced with plenty of mysteries in reality. I don't need to consume more mysteries for entertainment purposes. Besides, I find most mysteries tedious and obvious. If on TV, the killer is usually one of the first three people interviewed by the detectives, or the biggest guest star in the episode. Too obvious. I can appreciate a well-crafted mystery, but if The Mousetrap asks me to keep quiet about the solution to the mystery after I leave, does that mean the playwright thought the solution was the only worthwhile part of the play? Are the characters otherwise uninteresting and the plot otherwise pointless?
Did you ever watch the Columbo movies? The suspense in those wasn't in finding out "whodunnit" - that's shown from the get-go. In those movies, the suspense is in following Columbo's investigation, trying to spot the one tiny detail - the one little mistake - the murderer makes that tells Columbo who he/she is. Who cares if the murderer is usually the special guest star? The suspense is in the story itself. I'd have been quite upset if someone had blabbed the solution to Columbo discovering that (in one episode) William Shatner did indeed kill the victim. We know that happened. What the audience wants to know is how Columbo figured it out.

As for The Mousetrap... of course the playwright didn't think the solution was the only worthwhile part of the play. That's ludicrous. The reason the audience was asked not to tell anyone is twofold: First, of course it would spoil the play for others if they knew in advance what the solution was. But secondly, it was a way of drawing the audience in further: "You have experienced this mystery, and now you know the answer. This makes you special, in that you know something the rest of the people don't. By knowing the answer from watching the play, you're a participant in the solution, and that's a wonderful thing. Please don't deprive others of this same special feeling."

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Masiral wrote: View Post
Watching the Clock came out more than 2 years ago - I'd say that at this point, any "spoilers" from that book are fair game.
I've been giving this some thought.

I'd say if a book 2 years old is 'spoiled' for you, that's just tough.

These threads are for enthusiasts and the majority read the novels soon after release. Six months seems fair with a decent leeway built in.

If you are over six months behind, put up with spoilers, catch up or stay out of the Literature threads. Otherwise you are expecting everyone to jump through hoops for your benefit.
I just "love" the way some people here assume we should all be able to afford every book that comes out every month. I spent a lot of years where food was a struggle and any new books (or even 2nd-hand) were undreamed-of. Also, as some have pointed out, books don't simultaneously appear in all bookstores at the same time. And not everyone has a Kindle or other e-reader. So it's entirely possible that a book can come out and it can take someone a lot longer than 6 months to actually get it, never mind read it.

Scout101 wrote: View Post
... if you're ~30 books behind, do you have reasonable expectations of ever catching up? If you do, religiously following a forum where people are years ahead of you is a BAD idea. Or only search out threads for books you've completed. Going past that is on YOU, you took a risk KNOWING the thread was past your reading level. How much consideration should others take that someone else will purposely damage themselves and blame us for it?
This is one reason why I rarely post in this forum. There are approximately 10 years' worth of ST novels I haven't read, and even though I have many of them now, there was a time when I couldn't even afford them second-hand nor could I get to a library to borrow them. So I'm hopelessly behind. And I do the responsible thing and stay out of threads where I know people are talking about these books.

Where the danger lies for me is if I'm reading a thread about a book I've already read, and a recent post from someone who's further along could say, "This reminds me of what happened in the novel that came out last month..." and then they proceed to give away plot points about something recent in a thread that's actually about something else. THAT is what I object to. It's inconsiderate.

Masiral wrote: View Post
Deano2099 wrote: View Post
I'm sure glad you weren't alive during slavery.
I find it very hard to take your argument seriously when you compare spoiling a Star Trek book to the enslavement of entire races of human beings.
It wasn't the spoiling of books, it was the attitude of "Disagree with the decision BEFORE it's made, and forever after, shut up" that was being compared to slavery.
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Old September 12 2013, 06:39 PM   #125
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

The thing is, we have a rule now on spoilers that DOESN'T WORK. So what some of us are trying to say is to be considerate and don't spoil things for others just because a book is six months old (or even older).

Take the thread on Revelation and Dust. There is a MAJOR spoiler there that was posted in the open because the poster said he doesn't know how to use spoiler codes. But that spoiler is possible (and it's also possible to glance at it without wanting to) to bypass. But, then we have other people quoting the message without using a spoiler that that then make that spoiler out in the open.

Have consideration and forget any such "it's OK after six month to ruin books for others rule". Is anyone going to follow this rule or are you going to use spoiler codes because it's the right thing to do?
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Old September 12 2013, 06:43 PM   #126
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

JWolf wrote: View Post
Take the thread on Revelation and Dust. There is a MAJOR spoiler there that was posted in the open because the poster said he doesn't know how to use spoiler codes. But that spoiler is possible (and it's also possible to glance at it without wanting to) to bypass. But, then we have other people quoting the message without using a spoiler that that then make that spoiler out in the open.
Why do you keep using this as an example? It was a spoiler in a review thread for the proper book. That information is germane to the thread, which is already blanket-covered by a spoiler warning. It was not spoiling some other unsuspecting book. It was spoiling the book being reviewed.

Using this as your case-in-point only serves to weaken your argument. Because, as rightly pointed out by others, if you can't discuss a book in the open inside its review thread, where can you?

If you go your route, every single review thread:

Or the conversations in the review threads will all be along the lines of:
You know how that one guy does that one thing? What if the other guy did this other thing?
I don't know. Maybe if the lady had the thing, before she went to the other place, the guy might not have had to do that thing at all.
It's sort of like child-proofing a bar, where children aren't allowed in the first place. Or, I don't know, mandating that every ladder be handicap-accessible.

You're losing this war by choosing to fight the wrong battles.

Last edited by JeBuS; September 12 2013 at 07:03 PM.
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Old September 12 2013, 07:59 PM   #127
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

Alternately, perhaps if one wants to discuss a book without having to worry about being spoiled they should start a thread that explicitly requests that spoilers not be added. They may still happen inadvertently, but that's always going to be a risk.
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Old September 12 2013, 09:03 PM   #128
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

I don't think we have any problems with that, and in fact, you SEE that on occasion. Both in here and in the TV forums. Someone says they are starting a series, and wants to discuss it on their schedule, please no spoilers past that point. Not saying that maybe someone doesn't screw up somewhere, or you could get an annoying "oh, you'll see" when you ask a question, but I haven't really seen problems with anyone honoring that.
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Old September 12 2013, 09:11 PM   #129
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

I don't think we do either, but since some posters are evidently more concerned that they might be exposed to spoilers than others, creating "No Spoiler" threads for themselves would address their concerns for the most part.
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Old September 12 2013, 10:06 PM   #130
Masiral
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

DonIago wrote: View Post
I don't think we do either, but since some posters are evidently more concerned that they might be exposed to spoilers than others, creating "No Spoiler" threads for themselves would address their concerns for the most part.
I remember some forum that I visited actually had 2 threads for each book - a spoiler thread and a non-spoiler thread. I don't know if that could be done here, but maybe it would work?
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Old September 12 2013, 10:35 PM   #131
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

They wouldn't really be 1:1, though. The non-spoiler threads only exist when someone is behind, yet starts a thread for an old book they are reading. You wouldn't make one for every new release, because most people would just be in the regular thread so they can actually talk about what happened in the book and how that related to things going on in the rest of the series...
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Old September 12 2013, 10:41 PM   #132
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

Masiral wrote: View Post
I remember some forum that I visited actually had 2 threads for each book - a spoiler thread and a non-spoiler thread. I don't know if that could be done here, but maybe it would work?
What would be the point of a general no-spoiler review thread for each book? I'm not being facetious here, I genuinely don't understand what activity would take place in the thread if you can't discuss the events of the book being reviewed. I can understand an individual user posting a thread to discuss things at his own pace, as he progresses. But how would that work for a general thread for everybody?
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Old September 12 2013, 10:46 PM   #133
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

Have you been reading this thread? It's evident that some people want threads with no spoilers. So they can start no-spoiler threads when they feel it's desirable and get what they're looking for.

If they're not happy with the results? Well, they apparently weren't happy with the Moderators' decision either.
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Old September 12 2013, 10:50 PM   #134
Sran
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Where the danger lies for me is if I'm reading a thread about a book I've already read, and a recent post from someone who's further along could say, "This reminds me of what happened in the novel that came out last month..." and then they proceed to give away plot points about something recent in a thread that's actually about something else. THAT is what I object to. It's inconsiderate.
I agree with this and think people need to use common sense when it comes to discussing information in other novels that aren't directly related to the thread in question. Having said that, I don't believe that people purposely avoid doing this in an effort to be rude. People make mistakes and forget. It happens.

Timewalker wrote:
It wasn't the spoiling of books, it was the attitude of "Disagree with the decision BEFORE it's made, and forever after, shut up" that was being compared to slavery.
I should explain my point in saying that. I don't have a problem with debate and discussion about a particular topic. But I think it's inappropriate to constantly question the decisions of other people when they have shown themselves to be thoughtful and considerate. I used to be a member of a forum whose moderators were quick to stamp out any dissent by issuing warnings, bans, and numerous "my way or the highway" speeches that alienated several longtime posters, myself included.

I've not found the mod staff at this site to be that way. Every action I've seen them take has been carefully considered before being undertaken. This includes their decision about the rule of six-months for mandatory spoiler tags when discussing novels. It's perfectly acceptable to question the wisdom of a decision before it's made. But once the decision has been reached and implemented, it is the responsibility of everyone to stand the behind the decision and support it.

If people believe that a decision has been improperly or without consideration for all factors involved, the best approach would be for these individuals to present the moderators with new information that may facilitate new discussions and the implementation of a new policy. My problem with the way this situation has been handled is that the moderators have made a decision that- at face value- seems to be fair. But those opposed to the decision have insisted on repeating the same rhetoric they were using before the decision was made instead of presenting the moderators with information illustrating why the six-month rule doesn't work (as suggested by another poster).

JWolf wrote: View Post
The thing is, we have a rule now on spoilers that DOESN'T WORK. So what some of us are trying to say is to be considerate and don't spoil things for others just because a book is six months old (or even older).
Except that you've provided absolutely no proof that the rule doesn't work. You've only whined repeatedly because you don't agree with its existence. Another poster made an excellent suggestion that you and your supporters poll the members of this forum to determine what they think the best alternative policy should be. You've ignored this suggestion to this point and continued spewing the same tired rhetoric you were resorting to prior to the six-month rule's conception. We don't know if the rule works or not because it hasn't been in place long enough. What's more, people like you are determined to do whatever you can to undermine both it and the mods because you have an agenda you believe is superior (despite no proof of said superiority).

JWolf wrote:
Have consideration and forget any such "it's OK after six month to ruin books for others rule". Is anyone going to follow this rule or are you going to use spoiler codes because it's the right thing to do?
It's not your place to tell other people what's right or wrong where this forum is concerned. You're not a moderator and are no more important than any other poster here. You've repeatedly whined, bitched, and moaned because the mods have made a decision that you don't agree with. You've provided absolutely no statistical evidence that the rule doesn't work, nor have you suggested a suitable alternative that other posters agree with. You've whined, whined, and whined some more, as if throwing tantrum after tantrum is somehow going to have an impact on how this site is run.

You've also repeatedly attacked the character of other posters by suggesting that people are intentionally ruining books you've not read as a way of spiting you. Yet you've no proof of this, either. Why do you believe that everyone here must watch out for you when you've shown absolutely no consideration whatsoever for the rights, opinions, and feelings of other members? Who are you to tell other people how to behave when you've no authority to do so?

This situation reminds me of pedestrians trying to cross a busy street. The law says that pedestrians have the right of way (as they should). But anyone crossing a street should realize that he or she must look both ways before trying to cross. It's common sense. Cars can't stop as easily as people can. And accidents can be avoided if people take the time to watch out for themselves rather than assuming that someone else will be doing it for them.

The same is true of this forum. Each of us has a duty to follow the rules the moderators have set down. Each of us also has a responsibility to be courteous to other posters when it comes to discussion new novels or works that they've not yet read. But it also falls on individual posters to have enough sense to avoid clearly marked and titled threads if they've not read the book in question, as it's entirely plausible key details of the novel will be divulged there. A poster has no one to blame but himself if he opens a clearly marked thread about a book and reads it before reading the book. It's a matter of willpower and common sense. Have enough self-restraint not to the click the mouse button.

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Old September 12 2013, 11:14 PM   #135
Sran
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

DonIago wrote: View Post
If they're not happy with the results? Well, they apparently weren't happy with the Moderators' decision either.
They won't be. They believe that everyone here should accommodate them even though they've made no effort to do the same for other posters. One poster has gone out of his way to attack other members because he's convinced they have no regard for other people, conveniently ignoring the fact that his repeated accusations show even less regard for another person's feelings than does the accidental posting of a spoiler of a recently released novel.

It's disgusting. As I said in my previous post, I believe the moderators of this site are fair and open to suggestions made by regular posters. But the people opposed to the new rule have provided no alternatives that either the staff or other users can live with. They've merely whined as though throwing a fit will somehow convince the mods that the decision must be reversed. For all their posturing and verbal masturbation, they've failed to consider that all they've done is further alienate this community. Not exactly the best way to get their voices heard. But to each his own, I suppose.

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