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Old September 11 2013, 09:18 PM   #256
Robert Comsol
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Actually, has there ever been an exact and accurate portrayal of a historic setting in the holodeck? Our protagonists wouldn't be able to tell right from wrong unless it was a contemporary item.

I think it stands to reason that the only available artifact from which to create this holodeck illusion was a Constitution Class starship, in particular the one from the fleet museum Picard mentioned, but not the TOS Enterprise.

@ Mario de Monti & QuinnTV

You got it right. It was the special "Relics" issue (# 90) of the fan club magazine. From his own fan made bridge, Steve Horch had saved the chair, the helm/nav console and two chairs. Everything else was reconstructed based on original pictures. They even invited Bob Justman to check it out and he had to tell them, that they got the floor carpet wrong - the original one was grey but not brown.

Bob
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Old September 11 2013, 09:40 PM   #257
BK613
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
NCC-1831 (formerly assumed to be Intrepid) is almost done, so why pull the repair crew off to start work on the Enterprise?
Not is "almost" done, is done. That ship's bar goes all the way to 100%, and there's even a little green "completion" indicator at the end of the chart. This is one of the major arguments showing that Jein's number assignment is wrong. He assigns that number to Intrepid, but that ship is complete and would therefore not have repair crews still working on it, so that ship cannot be Intrepid.
You are right. But if the ship is done, why does it still appear on that chart?



Bob
Perhaps the yard work* is done on the Intrepid and the green bar indicates a period of quality assurance and crew training. RL ships and crews go through such a period after time in the yard.

As to why pull a crew off the Intrepid to work on the Enterprise, the Enterprise is there on an unscheduled visit, which means she should be doing starship stuff elsewhere. The Intrepid is probably scheduled for this layover, which means she has no pressing need to be elsewhere. She's where she's supposed to be and a few days delay may not be a s big a deal.

*(Yard working meaning repairs, maintenance and upgrades: there was always a little bit each every time the ship I served on was dockside.)
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Old September 11 2013, 10:25 PM   #258
Praetor
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
You are right. But if the ship is done, why does it still appear on that chart?

There's one major issue I have with this chart just showing repair performances at this starbase.

According to the context featured in "Court-Martial" the Enterprise has just recently arrived and Kirk apparently hasn't been to the starbase club, yet.

Yet, the chart clearly shows that there has been considerable "completion" progress on the Enterprise!

Considering there are three to four more days coming before repairs are complete, this "repair status" chart would then indicate that Enterprise had already been there for over a week!

Sorry guys, that's most definitely not what I can conclude from the introduction scenes of "Court-Martial", hence my suggestion we are looking at upgrade packages.
There's one fairly simple solution to this, which happens to be how I've always thought about it anyway...

I've always liked to think of it being more like a "health meter" for any ships present at the starbase - here are all the ships present, here's the level of functionality on a 100% scale. I've never felt that the bar accurately represented how much work had been done, inasmuch as how functional the ship was.

In which case NCC-1700 has taken a whoopin.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
You got it right. It was the special "Relics" issue (# 90) of the fan club magazine. From his own fan made bridge, Steve Horch had saved the chair, the helm/nav console and two chairs. Everything else was reconstructed based on original pictures. They even invited Bob Justman to check it out and he had to tell them, that they got the floor carpet wrong - the original one was grey but not brown.
Ah, thanks for dredging that up. I remember the Justman anecdote.

BK613 wrote: View Post
Perhaps the yard work* is done on the Intrepid and the green bar indicates a period of quality assurance and crew training. RL ships and crews go through such a period after time in the yard.

As to why pull a crew off the Intrepid to work on the Enterprise, the Enterprise is there on an unscheduled visit, which means she should be doing starship stuff elsewhere. The Intrepid is probably scheduled for this layover, which means she has no pressing need to be elsewhere. She's where she's supposed to be and a few days delay may not be a s big a deal.

*(Yard working meaning repairs, maintenance and upgrades: there was always a little bit each every time the ship I served on was dockside.)
That works for me, too.
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Old September 12 2013, 12:59 AM   #259
QuinnTV
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Apparently and according to ST II NCC-1701 was a member of the "Enterprise Starship Class" (the refit according to the Official TMP Blueprints was a "Starship II Class" Enterprise) and NCC-1701-A was a member of the "Constitution Starship [II] Class" according to ST VI.

I think it's rather simply and there's really nothing wrong with the TOS dedication plaque, as it contains the vital information: "(U.S.S.) Enterprise Starship Class".
I don't know what the dedication plaque of the sister ships would read, but for the class leader all the information is contained.
So, the lead ship in each class might have a dedication plaque that reads "Starship Class" to note that it was the primary ship in the class, but the following sister ships would have "[lead ship's name] Class".

"Starship Class" could mean "this vessel is the one for which this design batch/group is named".
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Old September 12 2013, 01:02 AM   #260
blssdwlf
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

QuinnTV wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Apparently and according to ST II NCC-1701 was a member of the "Enterprise Starship Class" (the refit according to the Official TMP Blueprints was a "Starship II Class" Enterprise) and NCC-1701-A was a member of the "Constitution Starship [II] Class" according to ST VI.

I think it's rather simply and there's really nothing wrong with the TOS dedication plaque, as it contains the vital information: "(U.S.S.) Enterprise Starship Class".
I don't know what the dedication plaque of the sister ships would read, but for the class leader all the information is contained.
So, the lead ship in each class might have a dedication plaque that reads "Starship Class" to note that it was the primary ship in the class, but the following sister ships would have "[lead ship's name] Class".

"Starship Class" could mean "this vessel is the one for which this design batch/group is named".
Hmm, that theoretically could work. Is there a visual catalogue for the plaques on other lead ships?
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Old September 12 2013, 05:08 AM   #261
Avro Arrow
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
Not is "almost" done, is done. That ship's bar goes all the way to 100%, and there's even a little green "completion" indicator at the end of the chart. This is one of the major arguments showing that Jein's number assignment is wrong. He assigns that number to Intrepid, but that ship is complete and would therefore not have repair crews still working on it, so that ship cannot be Intrepid.
You are right. But if the ship is done, why does it still appear on that chart?
Because the ship was still present at the base, and 100% complete is still a status? Presumably the portmaster would still need to know what ships were physically present, even if no further work on them is required. (Besides, when you're doing project planning IRL, when you finish a task, you mark it as complete on the plan, you don't just remove it! )

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
There's one major issue I have with this chart just showing repair performances at this starbase.

According to the context featured in "Court-Martial" the Enterprise has just recently arrived and Kirk apparently hasn't been to the starbase club, yet.
To be fair, going to the club probably isn't going to be one of his highest priorities!

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Yet, the chart clearly shows that there has been considerable "completion" progress on the Enterprise!

Considering there are three to four more days coming before repairs are complete, this "repair status" chart would then indicate that Enterprise had already been there for over a week!
I'm taking the following from the episode transcript at chakoteya.net, since I don't remember the dialogue from the episode well enough from memory.

From the dialogue, we don't really know how long Enterprise has been at the starbase. Kirk's intro log entry mentions that a full report of damages was made to Commodore Stone, but that seems to be a previous meeting, since the purpose of this meeting seems to be to review Kirk's deposition, which was probably taken earlier by a JAG officer at the base. Stone reassigns a repair crew while he's waiting for Kirk, but nothing says this is the first crew assigned to Enterprise. There could already be personnel working on Enterprise, and Stone added section 18 in to help. So we don't know how long they've been there, and there could already have been repairs in progress by the time the episode starts.

And I'm not sure where the "three to four days" comes from. The only time I found an estimate was when Kirk mentioned in the bar that repairs would take a "couple of days".

(OT: I know trying to make sense of TOS stardates is a fool's errand, but here's how things seem to go according to the stardate references in the episode:

2945.7 - Finney dies
2947.3 - initial log entry
2948.5 - full repairs in progress
2948.9 - repairs almost complete
The repairs aren't mentioned after this, but there are two more log entries during the trial at 2949.9 and 2950.1.)

Praetor wrote: View Post
There's one fairly simple solution to this, which happens to be how I've always thought about it anyway...

I've always liked to think of it being more like a "health meter" for any ships present at the starbase - here are all the ships present, here's the level of functionality on a 100% scale. I've never felt that the bar accurately represented how much work had been done, inasmuch as how functional the ship was.
I actually like this theory, but unfortunately it doesn't mesh well with the "% Complete" header. ("% Operational" or something would fit better.) Your theory also has the advantage of being a more meaningful graphic. For example, using this theory, you can see right away that, say, 1701 is in better condition than 1703. "% Complete" suffers as a meaningful chart because you don't know how long the repairs are estimated to take. So if 1701 is at 83%, but her repairs are scheduled to take two days in total, she's a lot further from completion than 1703, which is only at 51%, but whose repairs are only scheduled to take, say, four hours.

Or maybe I shouldn't be analyzing set decoration too closely!

Praetor wrote: View Post
In which case NCC-1700 has taken a whoopin.
That's what happens when you don't have Jim Kirk in command!

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Hmm, that theoretically could work. Is there a visual catalogue for the plaques on other lead ships?
Well, of course we never saw any other ship types (or plaques of said ship types) in TOS itself. By the movie/TNG era, for the lead ship it looks like they used the text "First starship of her class" instead.

Excelsior
Defiant
Prometheus

I can't remember any other lead ships we might have seen, off the top of my head...
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Old September 12 2013, 10:19 AM   #262
Robert Comsol
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

@ QuinnTV

Yes, I think that's what we are dealing with. It is a late thought but I can't help but notice that D.C. Fontana talked about the "12 ships of the starship class" (as if there were only 12 starships) and Bob Justman replied by referring to the 12 ships of the "Enterprise Starship Class" (i.e, there are more than 12 starships but only twelve of the Enterprise Class).

If only Greg Jein had considered this accurately in his treatise, he might have been aware that the starships beginning with "16" on the starship status chart had to belong to a different and older class.

@ Praetor

Yes, although the "health meter" idea seems unorthodox I think it would be an adequate rationalization - and a better one than the "repair status" concept (hmm...why does it say "starship status chart" and not "repair status chart"...?)

@ AvroArrow

Captain's Log, Stardate 2947.3. We have been through a severe ion storm. One crewman is dead. Ship's damage is considerable. I have ordered a non-scheduled layover on Starbase Eleven for repairs. A full report of damages was made to the commanding officer of Starbase Eleven, Commodore Stone.

Theoretically he could have already been at the starbase for several days, but then it's rather odd and unusual that it takes that long before he finally reads the report three times in Stone's office and laments about the death of a crewman (it didn't take him that long to talk about this?).

Again, the context looks rather clear. The ship has been damaged, requires immediate assistance, arrived at Starbase 11, Kirk delivered his report (re-read it three times to make sure he didn't overlook damage) and prompted Stone to re-assign a team to the unscheduled Enterprise because it had priority to carry on with whatever mission she had at the time.

Captain's Log, Stardate 2948.5. Starship Enterprise remains in orbit around Starbase Eleven. Full repairs in progress. I've been ordered to stand by on Starbase Eleven until the inquiry into the death of Lieutenant Commander Finney can be conducted. I'm confident of the outcome.

Now - and not before - "full repairs are in progress". Kirk is visiting the starbase club and tells his friends that the Enterprise is laying over for repairs and for a "couple of days". He can't possibly tell how long that's going to take but apparently he estimates more than just two days. YMMV.

Bob
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Old September 12 2013, 03:59 PM   #263
Praetor
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
QuinnTV wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Apparently and according to ST II NCC-1701 was a member of the "Enterprise Starship Class" (the refit according to the Official TMP Blueprints was a "Starship II Class" Enterprise) and NCC-1701-A was a member of the "Constitution Starship [II] Class" according to ST VI.

I think it's rather simply and there's really nothing wrong with the TOS dedication plaque, as it contains the vital information: "(U.S.S.) Enterprise Starship Class".
I don't know what the dedication plaque of the sister ships would read, but for the class leader all the information is contained.
So, the lead ship in each class might have a dedication plaque that reads "Starship Class" to note that it was the primary ship in the class, but the following sister ships would have "[lead ship's name] Class".

"Starship Class" could mean "this vessel is the one for which this design batch/group is named".
Hmm, that theoretically could work. Is there a visual catalogue for the plaques on other lead ships?
Well, both the Excelsior and Defiant say "First Starship of Her Class" but given that both of these are a different style from the TOS style plaque, I don't consider this an invalidation of the other theory.

Besides, you can hack that up and make it "(First) Starship (of her) Class."

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Yes, although the "health meter" idea seems unorthodox I think it would be an adequate rationalization - and a better one than the "repair status" concept (hmm...why does it say "starship status chart" and not "repair status chart"...?)
Well, "starship status chart" is one of the reasons that pointed to overall health rather than repair progress, IMO.
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Old September 12 2013, 07:54 PM   #264
BK613
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
@ QuinnTV


@ AvroArrow

Captain's Log, Stardate 2947.3. We have been through a severe ion storm. One crewman is dead. Ship's damage is considerable. I have ordered a non-scheduled layover on Starbase Eleven for repairs. A full report of damages was made to the commanding officer of Starbase Eleven, Commodore Stone.

Theoretically he could have already been at the starbase for several days, but then it's rather odd and unusual that it takes that long before he finally reads the report three times in Stone's office and laments about the death of a crewman (it didn't take him that long to talk about this?).

Again, the context looks rather clear. The ship has been damaged, requires immediate assistance, arrived at Starbase 11, Kirk delivered his report (re-read it three times to make sure he didn't overlook damage) and prompted Stone to re-assign a team to the unscheduled Enterprise because it had priority to carry on with whatever mission she had at the time.
I disagree with this assessment. The report that Kirk is signing is not a damage report, it is a formal statement (sworn deposition) on the circumstances of Ben Finney's death. According to the log entry, the damage report has already been made (notice the past tense.) My timeline would be:
-Ion storm
-Assess damages/search for Finney
-Order the layover
-Send the report
-Arrive/begin repairs (Kirk would have seen to this first IMO)
-Deposition and log extract.
Captain's Log, Stardate 2948.5. Starship Enterprise remains in orbit around Starbase Eleven. Full repairs in progress. I've been ordered to stand by on Starbase Eleven until the inquiry into the death of Lieutenant Commander Finney can be conducted. I'm confident of the outcome.

Now - and not before - "full repairs are in progress". Kirk is visiting the starbase club and tells his friends that the Enterprise is laying over for repairs and for a "couple of days". He can't possibly tell how long that's going to take but apparently he estimates more than just two days. YMMV.

Bob
All you can say though is that at 2948.5 "full repairs [are] in progress." They could have been in progress from the moment Kirk made the previous log entry and this log entry would be the same (assuming that they were still in progress).
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Old September 12 2013, 08:10 PM   #265
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Praetor wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Yes, although the "health meter" idea seems unorthodox I think it would be an adequate rationalization - and a better one than the "repair status" concept (hmm...why does it say "starship status chart" and not "repair status chart"...?)
Well, "starship status chart" is one of the reasons that pointed to overall health rather than repair progress, IMO.
If you are talking about displaying a summary of the progress of work related to the maintenance and repair of starships, I suppose you could call it Star Ship Maintenance and Repair Progress Summary. Or if maintenance and repair are implied by what you do and the chart is clearly a progress chart, then Star Ship Status would suffice, IMO.

Besides how would you quantify a starship's health and what use would that data set be to Stone?
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Old September 12 2013, 09:08 PM   #266
Robert Comsol
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

BK613 wrote: View Post
All you can say though is that at 2948.5 "full repairs [are] in progress." They could have been in progress from the moment Kirk made the previous log entry and this log entry would be the same (assuming that they were still in progress).
2945.7 - Finney dies (1.6 digits to >)
2947.3 - initial log entry / starship status chart shows NCC-1701 to be 83% complete (1.2 digits to >)
2948.5 - full repairs in progress / "couple of days" (0.4 digits to >)
2948.9 - repairs almost complete

Even if we were to assume that the ion storm took place in the same system as Starbase 11, interpreting this as a repair status chart would mean that
  • it took the original repair crew only 1.6 digits to do 83% of the necessary repairs, but with the "help" of the extra crew
  • it took them the same amount of time (1.6 digits) just to get the "final" repairs / 13% done!
Maybe that's why Stone is no longer in command of a starship.

And what was Spock doing all these days (?) with the computer logs? His arrival in Stone's office clearly shows he's late and was expected. This has all the elements of a ship that has just arrived, but not one that's already harbored at Starbase 11 for a couple of days.

Bob
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Old September 12 2013, 10:23 PM   #267
BK613
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
BK613 wrote: View Post
All you can say though is that at 2948.5 "full repairs [are] in progress." They could have been in progress from the moment Kirk made the previous log entry and this log entry would be the same (assuming that they were still in progress).
2945.7 - Finney dies (1.6 digits to >)
2947.3 - initial log entry / starship status chart shows NCC-1701 to be 83% complete (1.2 digits to >)
2948.5 - full repairs in progress / "couple of days" (0.4 digits to >)
2948.9 - repairs almost complete
we disagree on when the 2947.3 log entry occurs. I see it happening before Kirk meets Stone, you seem to see it as concurrent. I also don't see this meeting as the first thing Kirk (or Stone) would attend to upon the Enterprise's arrival. Getting his ship's assets back in the field would be the priority. The formal meeting over Finney's death would come after, once repair work was under way. Not saying it was days but I don't see it as immediate either.
Even if we were to assume that the ion storm took place in the same system as Starbase 11, interpreting this as a repair status chart would mean that
  • it took the original repair crew only 1.6 digits to do 83% of the necessary repairs, but with the "help" of the extra crew
  • it took them the same amount of time (1.6 digits) just to get the "final" repairs / 13% done!
Maybe that's why Stone is no longer in command of a starship.
Presupposes that the chart progress reflects a time element. There are other, more likely measurements, such as milestones or number of tasks/jobs.
And what was Spock doing all these days (?) with the computer logs? His arrival in Stone's office clearly shows he's late and was expected.
late for the meeting
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Old September 12 2013, 10:57 PM   #268
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

BK613 wrote: View Post
If you are talking about displaying a summary of the progress of work related to the maintenance and repair of starships, I suppose you could call it Star Ship Maintenance and Repair Progress Summary. Or if maintenance and repair are implied by what you do and the chart is clearly a progress chart, then Star Ship Status would suffice, IMO.

Besides how would you quantify a starship's health and what use would that data set be to Stone?
I think you could quantify it easily enough - but your latter point is a good one. I mean, I guess if his crews were repairing, then he'd care how "healthy" the ships were, but seeing how done the list of repairs were is a bit more straightforward.
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Old September 13 2013, 09:13 AM   #269
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Praetor wrote: View Post
Well, both the Excelsior and Defiant say "First Starship of Her Class" but given that both of these are a different style from the TOS style plaque, I don't consider this an invalidation of the other theory.

Besides, you can hack that up and make it "(First) Starship (of her) Class."
Hmmm, That could be a good alternative. I'll have to include that as an option to my answers for what class is the TOS Enterprise?
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Old September 13 2013, 10:58 AM   #270
Robert Comsol
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Re: Was the Enterprise A actually the Yorktown?

Maybe "U.S.S. Enterprise - Starship Class" was just too concise and therefore they felt it to be necessary to be more specific in later dedication plaques.

I just rewatched the opening scene of "Court Martial" (TOS without R) and we see the Enterprise just arriving or orbiting but without any repairs being done on her.

I still advocate the "upgrade" interpretation, especially since there is evidence that upgrades were performed (i.e. Stone realized Enterprise needed an upgrade in addition to the repairs).

Here is the Deck 7 Engineering Control Room from "The Naked Time". Notice that there are only two horizontal tubes behind the grating in the "cathedral".

Here is the Deck 7 Engineering Control Room from "Court Martial". You will notice that now there are three horizontal tubes behind the grating.

Since this upgrade is obvious, there is no reason to doubt that Stone was looking at an upgrade status chart and the still to perform upgrades on the Enterprise were not yet "complete".

Bob
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