RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,421
Posts: 5,506,575
Members: 25,129
Currently online: 476
Newest member: Talosian1978

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 11 2013, 04:00 AM   #1231
Dr.H
Lieutenant
 
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Man...would I love for Affleck to direct this film. It would totally be the most awesome cinematic justice ever if it was announced Snyder is leaving the director's chair with Affleck taking his place. He originally was approached by Nolan to direct Man of Steel to which he declined due to his inexperience in special effects. I really wonder how Steel would have turned out if he had accepted the gig.
Dr.H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 11 2013, 06:55 AM   #1232
Chuck Finley
Commander
 
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

To those opposed to Affleck, I too am skeptical of his acting ability, but after finally seeing Argo, I'm more convince. Though Argo is not the be all, end all, it is mor inspiring than his previous work. For what it's worth, I think he definitely looks the part.
Chuck Finley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 11 2013, 06:23 PM   #1233
davejames
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Sac, Ca
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Christopher wrote: View Post
But also it was the sheer superficiality of it. You could remove all that devastation without it affecting the plot, characters, or dialogue in any way. It had no impact on the story whatsoever. If you read a dialogue-only transcript of the film, you probably wouldn't even know that most of Metropolis had been destroyed. It wasn't even part of the story. It was completely gratuitous, tacked-on spectacle.
I won't deny the level of destruction was a bit much, but I wouldn't say the battle was completely superficial and unnecessary either. These are two ultra-powerful, godlike superbeings fighting each other-- of course it's going to cause a ton of damage and take quite a while to play out.

To have the whole thing neatly wrapped up in 15 minutes, with hardly any damage inflicted on the city, would have been unrealistic as hell.
davejames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 11 2013, 06:58 PM   #1234
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

^The point isn't whether there would've been damage or not. The point is about whether the story even acknowledges the damage. We see Metropolis subjected to Hiroshima-level devastation, then two scenes later we see the staff at the Daily Planet (whose building was clearly part of the devastated area) chatting and laughing in their offices with no acknowledgment that they're recovering from a horrific tragedy.

Even worse is Jenny's line "He saved us" when Superman shows up. It just doesn't fit in the story as shown. She's totally unaware of what Superman was doing on the opposite side of the planet. All she knows is that he was nowhere to be seen while the city was collapsing around her, that the US military then flew in and destroyed the machine that was wrecking the city, and that Lois Lane fell out of a plane and the guy in the cape flew in to save her. So all she knows is that Superman saved Lois, and had no impact at all on any other aspect of events that she was aware of. So putting the words "He saved us" into her mouth was grossly dishonest and invalid. It didn't fit the character and it didn't fit the situation.

So lack of realism is exactly my complaint. The characters do not react to the devastation in a remotely realistic way. It has no impact on them or on the story, so it's as if it didn't even happen. The movie was horrendously unrealistic, hypocritical, superficial, and incompetent in the way it tacked this massive destruction into the film without justifying or anchoring it in the story in any way whatsoever.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 11 2013, 07:28 PM   #1235
davejames
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Sac, Ca
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Well they definitely seemed pretty horrified and shell-shocked while the battle was going on, so I wouldn't say the destruction had no effect (although I agree the movie shrugged off the destruction afterward a little too easily).

And I think Superman stopping Zod from going on a rampage to destroy every last human being on Earth would definitely qualify as "saving us." Without Supes doing what he did, poor little Jenny and everyone she knows would have been toast.
davejames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 11 2013, 07:43 PM   #1236
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

davejames wrote: View Post
Well they definitely seemed pretty horrified and shell-shocked while the battle was going on, so I wouldn't say the destruction had no effect (although I agree the movie shrugged off the destruction afterward a little too easily).
But what I'm talking about is the lack of consequences. Yes, you see them reacting in the moment, but the moment itself is quickly forgotten and has no impact on what follows. So the appearance of having an effect, either on the characters, the city, or the world, is superficial. You could remove most of the destruction from the story and it would not alter the story's plot points in any material way.


And I think Superman stopping Zod from going on a rampage to destroy every last human being on Earth would definitely qualify as "saving us."
But the point is that Jenny herself had no way of knowing that at that moment. She was a character in the story, not a member of the audience, so she didn't have an omniscient viewpoint. At that particular point, she had no knowledge of what Superman had done on the other side of the world. The only thing she'd personally seen Superman doing prior to that moment was saving Lois Lane after she fell out of a plane. It is fundamentally bad writing to have a character display knowledge that it is impossible for the character to have -- and in this case it's particularly egregious because it's so completely opposite to how a character in her situation would be more likely to react (e.g. "Oh, you save the hot reporter, but where the hell were you ten minutes ago when hundreds of thousands of people were dying all around me?")
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 11 2013, 07:46 PM   #1237
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Interestingly enough, today is September 11 and around here nobody seems to have noticed.

The time frame might be too tight in Man of Steel, but eventually, everyone forgets caring about events. If you looked for 5 minutes at the people in 2001, and then looked for 5 minutes at the people in 2013, you would get the impression that we are a bunch of heartless monsters when actually we simply moved on.
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 11 2013, 08:15 PM   #1238
Scout101
Admiral
 
Scout101's Avatar
 
Location: Rhode Island, USA
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

12 years later? Likely a different feeling if you're talking about New Yorkers vice another crowd. And DEFINITELY different if you're observing them a few months later vice more than a decade...

Also, like 100 times the devestation. How many buildings did they drop in this one, all smashing into each other? What's the body count if you essentially turn half of New York into a parking lot?
__________________
Perhaps, if I am very lucky, the feeble efforts of my lifetime will someday be noticed and maybe, in some small way, they will be acknowledged as the greatest works of genius ever created by man. ~Jack Handey
STO: @JScout33
Scout101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 11 2013, 08:42 PM   #1239
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Christopher wrote: View Post
davejames wrote: View Post
Well they definitely seemed pretty horrified and shell-shocked while the battle was going on, so I wouldn't say the destruction had no effect (although I agree the movie shrugged off the destruction afterward a little too easily).
But what I'm talking about is the lack of consequences. Yes, you see them reacting in the moment, but the moment itself is quickly forgotten and has no impact on what follows. So the appearance of having an effect, either on the characters, the city, or the world, is superficial. You could remove most of the destruction from the story and it would not alter the story's plot points in any material way.
To be fair, nobody seems too broken up over the total destruction of Alderaan in STAR WARS either. Leia reacts in the moment, but then we're back to swashbuckling adventure and quips. And everybody is grinning and upbeat at the big feel-good awards ceremony at the end . . . despite the fact that an entire planet has been destroyed, on a scale that makes Zod's attack on Metropolis seem like a fender-bender!

Which just goes to demonstrate how tricky it can be to balance larger-than-life, comic-book-sized cataclysms with telling a rousing pulp adventure story. I mean, does anybody think that STAR WARS (or MAN OF STEEL) would have been better if it had ended with a somber memorial ceremony . . . .

Just a thought.
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 11 2013, 08:54 PM   #1240
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
To be fair, nobody seems too broken up over the total destruction of Alderaan in STAR WARS either. Leia reacts in the moment, but then we're back to swashbuckling adventure and quips. And everybody is grinning and upbeat at the big feel-good awards ceremony at the end . . . despite the fact that an entire planet has been destroyed, on a scale that makes Zod's attack on Metropolis seem like a fender-bender!
Yes -- but the destruction of Alderaan was over in a matter of seconds (in fact it was ridiculously brief). The film didn't devote half a reel to it. It wasn't a huge part of the story because the story was a lighthearted adventure tale rather than a solemn examination of grief and tragedy. And so it didn't have any more time or attention devoted to it than the story required. That's not the case here. The destruction went on forever but had no story relevance at all.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 11 2013, 09:13 PM   #1241
Captaindemotion
Vice Admiral
 
Captaindemotion's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

^ And the MOS makers were at great pains in advance to stress how 'grounded and realistic' it was, while Star Wars had a fun and fantasy tone.
__________________
Hodor!!!!!!!
Captaindemotion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 11 2013, 09:21 PM   #1242
Dr.H
Lieutenant
 
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Christopher wrote: View Post
It is fundamentally bad writing to have a character display knowledge that it is impossible for the character to have -- and in this case it's particularly egregious because it's so completely opposite to how a character in her situation would be more likely to react (e.g. "Oh, you save the hot reporter, but where the hell were you ten minutes ago when hundreds of thousands of people were dying all around me?")
Well actually a more plausible reaction to Superman in the aftermath of that would be "Ahhh! It's one of them!" Run!"

One of my personal disappointments with Man of Steel is contrary to the filmmakers central thesis with the film: "How would people react to a levitating super-human who could shoot layers out of his eyes?" We never had a reaction from normal, everyday people to Superman's first appearance. I hate the idea of having Superman first don to suit to fight an alien invasion as opposed to the traditional idea of him first doing it to stop an accident from happening. If Superman existed in the real world and started flying or whatever I would expect people would be somewhat dubious, scared or just confused. How wonderful would it have been for the film to actually follow through on what was set up earlier in the film with Jonathan Kent exclaiming "People are afraid of what they don't understand." Why couldn't the film showcase the conflicting or mixed reactions of the people towards an alien being? The only reaction we get towards Superman from the people is Jenny(who's an awful character, where's Jimmy Olsen?) This would add to the introspective crisis Clark faced and further raise the deep, internal question: Can he ever be accepted? I think it's the film's biggest failure from a story standpoint IMHO.
Dr.H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 11 2013, 09:22 PM   #1243
davejames
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Sac, Ca
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Christopher wrote: View Post
But the point is that Jenny herself had no way of knowing that at that moment. She was a character in the story, not a member of the audience, so she didn't have an omniscient viewpoint. At that particular point, she had no knowledge of what Superman had done on the other side of the world. The only thing she'd personally seen Superman doing prior to that moment was saving Lois Lane after she fell out of a plane. It is fundamentally bad writing to have a character display knowledge that it is impossible for the character to have -- and in this case it's particularly egregious because it's so completely opposite to how a character in her situation would be more likely to react (e.g. "Oh, you save the hot reporter, but where the hell were you ten minutes ago when hundreds of thousands of people were dying all around me?")
I think you're probably looking at all this a bit too literally. Comic book movies (and movies in general) routinely play fast and loose with reality and have characters saying stuff simply for the benefit of the audience or to get a story point across.

And besides, it's not like movie was tracking Jenny's every move. Like many people in the city she was certainly aware of what Zod and his gang was up to, and that they were responsible for leveling much of the city with their machine. And she probably saw Supes and Zod duking it out at some point as well, given how much ground they were covering.

For her to think Supes saved them (or at least had a very big hand in it) seems like a pretty natural conclusion for someone to make, I'd say.
davejames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 11 2013, 09:35 PM   #1244
DWF
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

Dr.H wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
It is fundamentally bad writing to have a character display knowledge that it is impossible for the character to have -- and in this case it's particularly egregious because it's so completely opposite to how a character in her situation would be more likely to react (e.g. "Oh, you save the hot reporter, but where the hell were you ten minutes ago when hundreds of thousands of people were dying all around me?")
Well actually a more plausible reaction to Superman in the aftermath of that would be "Ahhh! It's one of them!" Run!"

One of my personal disappointments with Man of Steel is contrary to the filmmakers central thesis with the film: "How would people react to a levitating super-human who could shoot layers out of his eyes?" We never had a reaction from normal, everyday people to Superman's first appearance. I hate the idea of having Superman first don to suit to fight an alien invasion as opposed to the traditional idea of him first doing it to stop an accident from happening. If Superman existed in the real world and started flying or whatever I would expect people would be somewhat dubious, scared or just confused. How wonderful would it have been for the film to actually follow through on what was set up earlier in the film with Jonathan Kent exclaiming "People are afraid of what they don't understand." Why couldn't the film showcase the conflicting or mixed reactions of the people towards an alien being? The only reaction we get towards Superman from the people is Jenny(who's an awful character, where's Jimmy Olsen?) This would add to the introspective crisis Clark faced and further raise the deep, internal question: Can he ever be accepted? I think it's the film's biggest failure from a story standpoint IMHO.
That you have to blame on the writer, he became Superman after discovering the drone ship and upon it's discovery the signal was sent that drew Zod to earth. Other than learning how to fly he wasn't given the oppertunity of a first day like in the first Donner movie. But then given the reaction to him in general maybe that was a good thing, since his very appearance set off the paranoria Jonathan Kent thought would happen.
__________________
The greatest science fiction series of all time is
Doctor Who! And I'll take you all on, one-by-one
or all in a bunch to back it up!"
--- Harlan Ellison, from his introduction
to the PINNACLE series of Doctor Who books
DWF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 11 2013, 10:00 PM   #1245
Dr.H
Lieutenant
 
Re: ‘Superman & Batman’ movie will follow ‘Man of Steel’

....So basically your argument is : "IT'S A COMIC BOOK MOVIE! QUIT BEING NITPICKY."
No offense, but I think you're trying to fill in the blanks for a very lazy aspect of the script. The writer/director wanted to falsely convey that the day was saved and Superman actually achieved something despite the fact he didn't really. Comic films are a genre that you'd least expect realism in, however there are certain superhero films that at least attempt to do a tone that has a more grounded sensibility which means being set in a world that is somewhat reminiscent of our own. Man of Steel was one of those films. Now granted, aside from the fact there's a hunky white alien that has super-powers, there were departure's from reality in the film that I could accept. However, the massive destruction that killed tens and thousands of people with Supes barely saving anybody(though I acknowledge he did save many more lives by destroying that gravity machine) in the city and only reaction to it is that terrible line? The scene felt dishonest, especially in the more believable, grounded world the film was set in. Worse enough it was a blatant and in your face. They wanted to assuage any doubts that Superman was a hero with that line--It was a writing cheat to lazily reaffirm Superman's heroism to the audience.

Last edited by Dr.H; September 11 2013 at 10:17 PM.
Dr.H is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
batman, superman

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:57 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.