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Old September 10 2013, 09:26 PM   #76
Lindley
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Re: Technological Stagnation

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
You will never be able to remove the driver's responsibility.
I'm actually going to agree with this. Any automated systems should be treated like an airplane's autopilot----available as a tool, but not in any way alleviating the pilot's responsibility for the safe completion of the flight.

It may come about that someday we can take things farther than that, but we have a ways to go before we get there. In the meantime, let's just get as much driver-assist technology in place as we can.
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Old September 10 2013, 09:35 PM   #77
JarodRussell
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Re: Technological Stagnation

Lindley wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
You will never be able to remove the driver's responsibility.
I'm actually going to agree with this. Any automated systems should be treated like an airplane's autopilot----available as a tool, but not in any way alleviating the pilot's responsibility for the safe completion of the flight.

It may come about that someday we can take things farther than that, but we have a ways to go before we get there. In the meantime, let's just get as much driver-assist technology in place as we can.
One negative side effect of driver assistance systems is that people unlearn how to drive, basically. Rely on your parking assistance way too often and you stop being able to park your car properly in case the system fails, for example.

Also the reliance on your assistance systems makes you pay less attention, and increases your reaction times in case something goes wrong, that's been shown as well.
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Old September 10 2013, 09:42 PM   #78
Robert Maxwell
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Re: Technological Stagnation

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Lindley wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
You will never be able to remove the driver's responsibility.
I'm actually going to agree with this. Any automated systems should be treated like an airplane's autopilot----available as a tool, but not in any way alleviating the pilot's responsibility for the safe completion of the flight.

It may come about that someday we can take things farther than that, but we have a ways to go before we get there. In the meantime, let's just get as much driver-assist technology in place as we can.
One negative side effect of driver assistance systems is that people unlearn how to drive, basically. Rely on your parking assistance way too often and you stop being able to park your car properly in case the system fails, for example.

Also the reliance on your assistance systems makes you pay less attention, and increases your reaction times in case something goes wrong, that's been shown as well.
That ship sailed a long time ago: automatic transmissions, power steering, anti-lock brakes, cruise control, traction/stability control, etc. There's so much that separates the driver from the actual mechanical behavior of the car at this point that it's almost a joke to still call it "driving." The more automated cars get, the more absurd the idea of "driving" yourself becomes.

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Please provide examples of problems a computer could not respond to.
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
A computer's not going to be able to handle every emergency
Um.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
but it's going to do a better job of handling most emergencies than a human ever could. Poor traction situations are probably the best example of just how bad humans are at coping with dangerous conditions
Lindley wrote: View Post
I don't think anyone is proposing a system that can't be overridden.
No argument with either point. But it's hard to know where to draw the line between where a machine should be responsible and where a human must be. I'd hate for that line to be drawn by the lawyers.
My original sentence should have ended with "that a human could respond to better." Does that settle the contradiction for you and JarodRussell?
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Old September 10 2013, 09:56 PM   #79
gturner
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Re: Technological Stagnation

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The concept of automated cars isn't feasable. On highways, perhaps. In cities, never.

There will ALWAYS be situations a computer cannot cope with, and the human needs to take over. But that human will be playing chess or masturbating inside his car in the meantime, his situational awareness is gone. That problem cannot be solved and that's why it will not work.
Complete nonsense.

Please provide examples of problems a computer could not respond to.
A loss of vehicle electrical power. That happens, a lot, and then you've got a 2,000 pound ballistic object traveling at 70 mph, just as if the driver got shot in the head by a sniper.

A system crash. Suppose the blue screen of death really did often end in death?

A blown tire or hydroplaning, ending in a big ugly wreck. The automobile company would then be liable for not anticipating and reacting correctly.

Hacking. With a driverless car, a car bomb is automatically upgraded to a smart bomb.
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Old September 10 2013, 10:01 PM   #80
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Re: Technological Stagnation

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
One negative side effect of driver assistance systems is that people unlearn how to drive, basically. Rely on your parking assistance way too often and you stop being able to park your car properly in case the system fails, for example.

Also the reliance on your assistance systems makes you pay less attention, and increases your reaction times in case something goes wrong, that's been shown as well.
That ship sailed a long time ago: automatic transmissions, power steering, anti-lock brakes, cruise control, traction/stability control, etc. There's so much that separates the driver from the actual mechanical behavior of the car at this point that it's almost a joke to still call it "driving." The more automated cars get, the more absurd the idea of "driving" yourself becomes.
Modern power steering and power brakes give the driver plenty of feedback as to what the car is doing. The power assist just takes some of the physical work out of driving.

I've never owned a car with cruise control, and never will. And I drive a stick shift.
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Old September 10 2013, 10:03 PM   #81
MacLeod
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Re: Technological Stagnation

DarthTom wrote: View Post
Lindley wrote: View Post
I think a practical system is going to need a combination of approaches. At the end of the day, for safety reasons (and hack protection) cars will need to make decisions locally. There's nothing stopping them from warning each other what they're about to do, but they need to be smart enough not to rely on other vehicles doing what they claim, and recognize quickly when a given vehicle is "untrusted".
Whhile I was driving to work this morning I was thinking, what would be the biggest technological challenges to a driverless car. And in most driving situations I think a computer can navigate. However there are some situations where humans anticpate a problem may lay ahead.

For example, if I see a car drifting out of its lane 3 cars ahead I'm aware of that as a potential hazard - the computer however cannot anticipate that as a hazard?

Another example,

If I see a pedestrian 1/4 mile ahead who's standing at the curb but appears as though they may dart across the road based on their body language, I slow down.

A computer cannot anticipate where hazards are whereas we can.
We have the technology for cars to brake and come to a stop themselves if they sense you are getting to close to the car in front. And if all dirverless cars communicated to each other, the other cars computer would tell your cars computer that it is moving out of lane. So your cars computer could take appropriate action.
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Old September 10 2013, 10:16 PM   #82
MacLeod
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Re: Technological Stagnation

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Lindley wrote: View Post

I'm actually going to agree with this. Any automated systems should be treated like an airplane's autopilot----available as a tool, but not in any way alleviating the pilot's responsibility for the safe completion of the flight.

It may come about that someday we can take things farther than that, but we have a ways to go before we get there. In the meantime, let's just get as much driver-assist technology in place as we can.
One negative side effect of driver assistance systems is that people unlearn how to drive, basically. Rely on your parking assistance way too often and you stop being able to park your car properly in case the system fails, for example.

Also the reliance on your assistance systems makes you pay less attention, and increases your reaction times in case something goes wrong, that's been shown as well.
That ship sailed a long time ago: automatic transmissions, power steering, anti-lock brakes, cruise control, traction/stability control, etc. There's so much that separates the driver from the actual mechanical behavior of the car at this point that it's almost a joke to still call it "driving." The more automated cars get, the more absurd the idea of "driving" yourself becomes.
However most cars soled in places like Europe (and perhaps Japan, Australia etc..) are manual transmissions. And how does ABS, power steeering and traction control sperate you from driving?

ABS and traction control systemsl(TCS) can help prevent accidents, though their are times when you actually need to switch off TCS. As for power steering all that means is the steering wheel is easier to turn. It doesn't seperate you from driving. You still have to feel what the car is doing. The problem is that some cars give better feedback say through the steering wheel than others.

As for cruise control like anything else it's just another driver aid, you as a a driver still have to be aware of what is going on, and planning ahead.
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Old September 11 2013, 04:50 AM   #83
Silvercrest
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Re: Technological Stagnation

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
My original sentence should have ended with "that a human could respond to better." Does that settle the contradiction for you and JarodRussell?
As far as the wording goes, yes. Can't speak for Jarod, though.

gturner has some interesting answers to your question, too.

But I think ultimately Lindley pegged it. Driver-assist technology is okay as far as it goes. However, we can't let it take the place of driver responsibility ... short of revolutionary changes in computer capabilities, vehicle capabilities, and human expectations.

Until then, the driver must have the same responsibility he's always had, regardless of how much automation is in place. And people need to understand that.
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Old September 11 2013, 04:45 PM   #84
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Technological Stagnation

Transportation technology stagnated since the '70. That's correct.
Other technologies/sciences, on the other hand - computing, biology, etc - are advancing nicely.


About the legalisms surrounding driver-assist technology:
It depends on its safety.
If it's unsafe, it will not drive cars - not alone, anyway.

If it's safe enough (as in, probabilistically safer than human drivers), it will drive cars alone.
Eventual accidents will be the responsibility (vis a vis criminal law):
- of the proprietor of the car/person who has the obligation to maintain said car: if they're due to malfunctions of the technology.
-person in charge of quality control: if they're due to the lacking quality of the technology as it exists the factory.

This is not the first time such issues have appeared. They don't require a revolution in law to be solved.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; September 11 2013 at 05:02 PM.
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Old September 11 2013, 05:06 PM   #85
Robert Maxwell
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Re: Technological Stagnation

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Transportation technology stagnated since the '70. That's correct.
No, it's not. Not even close. Take a car from today and compare it to a car from the '70s. Other than having four wheels, a steering column, and an internal combustion engine, how are they alike? Car technology has changed dramatically over that period, particularly in terms of safety features and efficiency.

No, they don't fly, but then the market's not been looking for flying cars, either.
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Old September 11 2013, 05:18 PM   #86
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Technological Stagnation

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Transportation technology stagnated since the '70. That's correct.
No, it's not. Not even close. Take a car from today and compare it to a car from the '70s. Other than having four wheels, a steering column, and an internal combustion engine, how are they alike? Car technology has changed dramatically over that period, particularly in terms of safety features and efficiency.

No, they don't fly, but then the market's not been looking for flying cars, either.
What about its propulsion - its engine, Robert? The progress here was snail-paced - consisting mainly of introducing computing technology.

Perhaps you want to talk about aviation and rocketry.
Relating to their propulsion, not their flight-attendant services or wall paper, that is.

Or perhaps you would like to compare the progress in transportation technology until the '70s to progress since the '70s.

Transportation technology DID stagnate since the '70s.
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Old September 11 2013, 06:36 PM   #87
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Re: Technological Stagnation

Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Let's be blunt here, technologically speaking we've stagnated.
We were supposed to have flying cars and hover boards in 2015 and looking at the movie they'd had them for a while before that. So where are they? we don't have anything remotely like anti-gravity.

Where are our moon colonies? Mars colonies?

Are we ever going to get anti-gravity? is it possible such technology does not and never will exist? What does that mean to our development as a species?
If all we will ever have to get off this planet is rockets then we're basically stuck here and that doesn't bode well with an ever increasing population and a planet with limited resources.

We should be mining Mars by now but we're not.

Why are we so far behind? we have all these fast paced industrialised economies, trillions of pounds world combined economy. Why is it so hard for every nation on Earth to throw some money into a planetary project to get off this rock?

Where are the floating sea cities?

All I ever see are people putting forward conceptual ideas and that's both where it begins and where it ends.

We're going nowhere at all. We'll still be in the same place a hundred years from now, probably even two hundred years from now.
We might aswell get used to the idea that as a species we're stagnant and a failure.
^^^
This post is inaccurate. When I was growing up - all the above was SUPPOSED to be available by the year 2000.
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Old September 11 2013, 11:55 PM   #88
MacLeod
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Re: Technological Stagnation

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Transportation technology stagnated since the '70. That's correct.
No, it's not. Not even close. Take a car from today and compare it to a car from the '70s. Other than having four wheels, a steering column, and an internal combustion engine, how are they alike? Car technology has changed dramatically over that period, particularly in terms of safety features and efficiency.

No, they don't fly, but then the market's not been looking for flying cars, either.
What about its propulsion - its engine, Robert? The progress here was snail-paced - consisting mainly of introducing computing technology.

Perhaps you want to talk about aviation and rocketry.
Relating to their propulsion, not their flight-attendant services or wall paper, that is.

Or perhaps you would like to compare the progress in transportation technology until the '70s to progress since the '70s.

Transportation technology DID stagnate since the '70s.
Aren't car engines of today both Petrol and Diesel based, more efficent and cleaner than a car from the 1970's?
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Old September 12 2013, 12:17 AM   #89
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Technological Stagnation

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post

No, it's not. Not even close. Take a car from today and compare it to a car from the '70s. Other than having four wheels, a steering column, and an internal combustion engine, how are they alike? Car technology has changed dramatically over that period, particularly in terms of safety features and efficiency.

No, they don't fly, but then the market's not been looking for flying cars, either.
What about its propulsion - its engine, Robert? The progress here was snail-paced - consisting mainly of introducing computing technology.

Perhaps you want to talk about aviation and rocketry.
Relating to their propulsion, not their flight-attendant services or wall paper, that is.

Or perhaps you would like to compare the progress in transportation technology until the '70s to progress since the '70s.

Transportation technology DID stagnate since the '70s.
Aren't car engines of today both Petrol and Diesel based, more efficent and cleaner than a car from the 1970's?
Yes, today's car engines are somewhat more efficient than in the '70, etc.
This relatively small advance in over 40 years is not snail-paced when compared to the advancements in transportation between, for example, 1930 and 1970?
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Old September 12 2013, 12:20 AM   #90
Robert Maxwell
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Re: Technological Stagnation

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

What about its propulsion - its engine, Robert? The progress here was snail-paced - consisting mainly of introducing computing technology.

Perhaps you want to talk about aviation and rocketry.
Relating to their propulsion, not their flight-attendant services or wall paper, that is.

Or perhaps you would like to compare the progress in transportation technology until the '70s to progress since the '70s.

Transportation technology DID stagnate since the '70s.
Aren't car engines of today both Petrol and Diesel based, more efficent and cleaner than a car from the 1970's?
Yes, today's car engines are somewhat more efficient than in the '70, etc.
This relatively small advance in over 40 years is not snail-paced when compared to the advancements in transportation between, for example, 1930 and 1970?
What advancements were you expecting, exactly? Most of the limitations of cars are actually human limitations. Cars don't go 300 miles an hour because humans can't safely drive them that quickly, for instance.
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