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Old September 4 2013, 09:38 PM   #331
DalekJim
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Essentially what I said? The only person that's been particularly positive about these novels is kirk55555555. And his opinions on things are some of the most random I've encountered.
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Old September 4 2013, 11:56 PM   #332
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I've got about one hundred pages of 'Children of Dune' left. At the risk of opening myself up to spoilers, I'll refrain from commenting on the book yet, I'll do that when I'm finished. I will say this though, I am really loving this book, it really does make 'Dune Messiah' look pretty small scale in comparison.

School starts for me the 25th of this month. I intend to finish this book and also finish 'God Emperor...' After that I might put the other two on hold, at least until I see how much attention school will be requiring of me this time out.
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Old September 5 2013, 12:21 AM   #333
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
You are being far too generous in regards to the KA&BH books. They aren't even good action books, they are just generic filler that really avoid the meat of what FH was trying to write about. The sequels especially, but also the prequels. They water down and dilute what was essential within those novels and replace them with B-movie plots.
Well, I can honestly say that I like The House Trilogy more than God Emperor or Chapterhouse (both of which were very good books, just not as good as a lot of the other Dune books), and I thought that Paul of Dune/Winds of Dune and their two ending books were also pretty good. I also give them credit for kind of explaining one of Paul's reasons for murdering billions of people for supposedly "noble" reasons. There is always the reason that he wanted power and no opposition, but he always implied it was because of his vague, never defined visions that always annoyed me. Winds of Dune, while talking about Bronso of IX and his role, has Paul mention something about his goal being to be so evil and murdering that humanity would learn a lesson about not trusting charasmatic leaders. That doesn't make a lot of sense and doesn't even come into play in the future of Chapterhouse and the other books, but atleast they tried. I know there was "the golden path" too, but it was pretty confusing.

I think FH was a great writer, but I've never been able to find a real reason why the jihad was inevitable. It was always just random vague lines about the visions saying this is the lesser of evil choices, but we never get told by FH exactly why its neccesary or even what the visions showed. Same with Leto and his worm transformation. I think his goal was to live a long time to "lead" humanity, but in the end Leto didn't do much except be a tyrant for a long time. I guess you could argue his long life helped Duncan become what he would become in the last Dune book because of all his ghola lives, but that didn't seem to be something Leto knew about or was working towards. I think there was talk about the "golden path", but that was also never really clear. Something about dependency on spice and human evolution according to wikipedia. Its weird how much of Dune is so poorly explained in the later FH books, yet I still enjoy them. Maybe my reread will make his stuff more obvious (while I've read the first three books a lot, I've read God Emperor, Chapterhouse and Heretics exactly once each) but, while the books themselves always made sense, a lot of FH's long term story elements were just explained poorly. Thats nothing against him or his way of writing, I just think its a flaw with the books.
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Old September 5 2013, 03:18 AM   #334
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Why was the jihad inevitable? Because humanity had stagnated. After ten thousand years of galactic empire, people were not expanding. People rarely moved from one planet to the next. There was no advancements in art or literature or philosophy. Yet on this singularly important planet lived millions of people who had been oppressed for so long that they were ready to explode. The human race had been asleep for so long, but it was awakening, and about to test its limits. Paul awoke the sleeper when he showed the Fremen that they could challenge an empire. Nothing he did after that point could stop them from taking out millennia of wrath on humanity.

Why did Leto have to do what he did? Because despite the jihad, mankind was still stagnant. They were not expanding into the rest of the infinite universe. Someday, something (no, not thinking machines dang it!) would come and wipe them out. Leto oppressed mankind for five thousand years, pushing them into a crucible that was even worse than the previous ten thousand years of stagnation. When he died, humanity awoke again, realizing that there was a whole universe out there to be conquered. By the time they faced the challenge that Leto had foreseen, they had expanded too far and grown too strong to ever be fully defeated.

That is how I read the books, at least.
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Old September 5 2013, 06:59 PM   #335
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

That is a pretty bad reason to murder billions of people. Honestly, it makes more sense if Paul and Leto just screwed up, or where just being lead to turn Duncan into what he becomes. Paul and Leto were both way too sure of their visions. Paul would keep saying the future was always changing, but apparently Leto didn't get he memo, becuase he acts like only the "golden path" is the right choice. Besides which, how many planets are they supposed to colonise? The empire in Paul's day already had a huge number of habitable planets with people on them. Paul killed trillons and actually lowered the number of planets the empire had that could support life, so he wasn't following the "golden path".

In the end, its all BS. I just read it as Paul being to arrogant and wrongly believeing that his vision was the only right choice, and Leto was the same way, he just took it way too far. I guess you could say that Leto was partially responsible for saving humanity (because of his constant ressurection of Duncan Idaho) and maybe that was where his visions were actually leading him, but in the end he didn't do what he thought he was doing. His "golden path" was just a false trail, it was Duncan's evolution that really saved humanity. Thats weird, but makes a lot more sense than murdering billions of people to make them pointlessly migrate because of no real reason outside of confusing writing (Spreading out to save themselves is just kind of stupid, they were already fairly spread out, and the machines had all the time in the universe to find them and kill them all anyway). Also, that still doesn't explain why they needed to have people who were immune to people with visions, but I'm just going to accept that it happened and might make sense somehow.

Also, talking about the jihad, if Paul hadn't controlled the spice, the fremen would have been massacured by more powerful forces. All he had to do to stop them was not threaten the spice and not tell them how to do it (I think he's the one who learned how the spice could be destroyed I don't think the fremen had any idea befoire he came along). They were good fighters, but the empire/spacing guild was more than capable of killing hem all and leaving the spice intact, if Paul hadn't been their to threaten them. Plus, Paul was the one who riled them up. If he hadn't shown up, all the Freemen ould have done was continue Kynes plan.

It seems like I'm really not a fan of this stuff, but I love the Dune series. I just don't think parts of the overall story were done very well.
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Old September 5 2013, 07:22 PM   #336
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Murdering billions of people is preferable to total extinction, which was where humanity was headed in every other possible future Leto and Paul could perceive.

I think in the first book Paul says to himself at some point (I think it was after the knife fight with Jamis) that he'd just passed the point of no return for the Jihad. That even if he killed everyone in the chamber and himself right then and there, it'd still happen. IIRC the difference between Paul and Leto II is that Paul tried to control the future whereas Leto imposed it.
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Old September 5 2013, 07:40 PM   #337
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

So, the future is always in motion, except when its something Paul has to do? If he had died after fighting Jamis, nothing would have happened. The Freeman had no idea how to threaten the spice, so even if they had started a jihad, they wouldn't have even gotten off the planet, and they probably would have been murdered by the empire. I get the books justification for what Paul did, I just think its really stupid.
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Old September 5 2013, 09:48 PM   #338
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I think by that point the hawkbats had already been sent, so word of Paul and Jessica would have spread. No small thing given the prophecy the BG had implanted in the Fremen religion. To paraphrase a certain Vorlon: the avalanche and begun and it was too late for the pebbles to vote.

As for the future, yes, it is always in motion. I think Paul's perception of prescience is compared to one's view of the land. You can see what you're standing on and your immediate surroundings and what's off in the horizon. While lies between those two extremes are hills and valleys in which events are uncertain and hidden from view. The later books also explain that the presence of other prescients like the Navigators can cause a vortex of uncertainty, which is actually what freaked them out so much. They couldn't see Paul, but they saw the nexus of growing uncertainty that surrounded him.
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Old September 5 2013, 09:52 PM   #339
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

InklingStar wrote: View Post
Why was the jihad inevitable? Because humanity had stagnated. After ten thousand years of galactic empire, people were not expanding. People rarely moved from one planet to the next.
Well when ones civilization is reliant on an organization with a monopoly on space travel only because they are the only ones who can do it an need a highly addictive narcotic substance to do it due to the total abandonment of computers after luddites took over the universe expansion seems kind of hard.

There was no advancements in art or literature or philosophy.
Well they do come from a culture essentially rug by two fruity cults one of which seems more obsessed with breeding a super human and tries to apparently breed out self preservation instincts than art or literature or philosophy and the other basically deals entirely with math and maintaining their drug addiction its easy to see why this is the case.

Reverend wrote: View Post
I think in the first book Paul says to himself at some point (I think it was after the knife fight with Jamis) that he'd just passed the point of no return for the Jihad. That even if he killed everyone in the chamber and himself right then and there, it'd still happen. IIRC the difference between Paul and Leto II is that Paul tried to control the future whereas Leto imposed it.
It was actually before the fight with Feyd-Rautha, and the reason why he concluded this is that regardless of if he won or not the Fremen would rampage around the galaxy either because they have an unstoppable god figure aka Paul or in revenge for Paul's death.
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Old September 11 2013, 01:02 AM   #340
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I finally finished 'Children of Dune.'

I quite enjoyed it as well, and I can see why everyone praises it over 'Messiah.' While 'Dune Messiah' was a good book in it's own right, it never really felt like a complete story, I still enjoyed it though. 'Children of Dune' was much more satisfying to me, and despite knowing beforehand that it would involve the fall of Alia (both literally and figuratively, it turns out) it was still depressing to watch her lose her inner struggle and be forced to take her own life (in a scene that brought tears to my eyes).

Herbert's writing continues to impress me, I cannot wait to jump into 'God Emperor of Dune' which I'll probably do tonight (my goal is to finish it before I start up school on the 25th of this month). The last two may have to wait, depending on how much attention school will take.
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Old September 11 2013, 12:00 PM   #341
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

InklingStar wrote:
Someday, something (no, not thinking machines dang it!) would come and wipe them out.


InklingStar wrote:
Leto oppressed mankind for five thousand years
I thought it was somewhat under four.

Aldo wrote:
it was still depressing to watch her lose her inner struggle and be forced to take her own life (in a scene that brought tears to my eyes).
Wait till you get to the miniseries!
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Old September 11 2013, 05:17 PM   #342
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Aldo wrote: View Post
I finally finished 'Children of Dune.'

I quite enjoyed it as well, and I can see why everyone praises it over 'Messiah.' While 'Dune Messiah' was a good book in it's own right, it never really felt like a complete story, I still enjoyed it though. 'Children of Dune' was much more satisfying to me, and despite knowing beforehand that it would involve the fall of Alia (both literally and figuratively, it turns out) it was still depressing to watch her lose her inner struggle and be forced to take her own life (in a scene that brought tears to my eyes).

Herbert's writing continues to impress me, I cannot wait to jump into 'God Emperor of Dune' which I'll probably do tonight (my goal is to finish it before I start up school on the 25th of this month). The last two may have to wait, depending on how much attention school will take.
What did you think of the twins' being only 9 years old and trying to handle all the stuff thrown at them?

Oh, and you should also tackle the Dune Encyclopedia (Frank Herbert approved of it, even though it only covers the first 4 books and FH's later novels contradicted parts of it).

And then there's the parody National Lampoon's Doon - it's written in the style of Dune, and is hilarious!

Set Harth wrote: View Post
InklingStar wrote:
Leto oppressed mankind for five thousand years
I thought it was somewhat under four.
It was 3000 years between the end of Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune. Therefore Leto existed as the Tyrant for slightly over 3000 years.

Then it's another 1500 years between that and Heretics of Dune.
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Old September 11 2013, 06:38 PM   #343
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote: View Post
What did you think of the twins' being only 9 years old and trying to handle all the stuff thrown at them?
Considering they were both pre-born, and we already saw how that affects a child with Alia in 'Dune.' I had no issue with it, it made them really interesting characters, actually. There was one hiccup I had, occasionally I would slip into picturing James McAvoy as Leto II since he does portray him in the mini, but since in the book he's nine, I quickly got back to picturing a nine year old

Oh, and you should also tackle the Dune Encyclopedia (Frank Herbert approved of it, even though it only covers the first 4 books and FH's later novels contradicted parts of it).
After I finish the six main books I may give it a read. I also intend to delve into the prequel novels...despite everyone warning me against them

And then there's the parody National Lampoon's Doon - it's written in the style of Dune, and is hilarious!
I hadn't intended to give that one a look, but I just may if it's as funny as you say it is.
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Old September 11 2013, 06:50 PM   #344
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

The antics of Pall-Mauve'Bib and Revved-Up Mother Jazzica will definitely amuse you.
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Old September 11 2013, 07:30 PM   #345
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

In my Dune reread, I finished rereading Children of Dune (this is probablt atleast my 5 time). Its actually a bit of a harder read than I remember. Thats probably because I've read it enough times that I want to get on to God Emperor, which I've only read once, so I've just wanted to get through it. Its a good book, although its my least favorite of what I think of as the three main Dune books (Dune, Messiah, and Children of Dune) and thats probably why I've taken so long in reading it (I'm a fast reader, but I put reading this on hold to read the newest Star Trek book, which is why it took longer than normal for me to finish).

The TV mini series (the sequel to the mini of the Dune which combined Messiah and CoD and had most of the same cast, exceopt Jessica's actor was replaced by the borg queen from First Contact) is actually my favorite way to experience CoD. The Dune mini was great, and this one was just as good if not better. Even though its very loyal to the book, it doesn't have some of the annoyances of the book, plus Leto and Ghani are teenagers played by adult actors, which I honestly like better than the really young versions in the book. Also, the guy who plays Leto is the same good actor that plays Professor X in X-Men First Class, which is cool.

The book left me with the same questions it always does, mostly about why the hell Jessica did everything in her power to seemingly try to turn Leto into an abomination, but its not enough to ruin my enjoyment of the book. It went overboard with the parts of the first books I thought wasn't done well, like all of the poorly explained vision stuff. It also starts talking about (and never really explaining) the stupid "Golden Path" that turns out to be absolutely pointless in the end, and stuff like that is why its my least favorite of the first three books. But, it still has a lot to enjoy and isn't a bad book by any means, its just not as good as Dune and Dune Messiah.

Next up is God Emperor. I read it once a long time ago, so it will be interesting to see how it is on a second read, this time while I've been reading most of the series in a short period of time. I'm just going to say that, from what I remember, this will probably still be the weakest of the main Dune books, but I remember liking it. I don't remember if its heavier or lighter on stupid vision stuff and the "golden path" than CoD, although I'm not holding my breath for it being lighter.
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