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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Revelation and Dust.
Outstanding 29 25.89%
Above Average 45 40.18%
Average 25 22.32%
Below Average 7 6.25%
Poor 6 5.36%
Voters: 112. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 11 2013, 01:01 AM   #211
JeBuS
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JWolf wrote: View Post
What about the fact that Revelation and Dust is book one of a five book mini-series don't some of you get? If everything was wrapped up in the first book, there would be no need for the other four books.

Take a good look at The Empire Strikes Back. It ended with a cliff-hanger and we have to wait for the next movie to find out what happens. It's the same sort of thing here.

It's not supposed to wrap things up in book one. It's supposed to wrap things up in book five. Yes, some things will be wrapped up before book five, but the entire story won't be wrapped up until book five.
For an in depth response, you can simply read back a few pages. But to sum it up: this book had no story arc of its own. Therefore, it's not comparable to TESB, since that movie had a complete arc of its own, even though it ended on a cliff-hanger.
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Old September 11 2013, 02:28 AM   #212
JWolf
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JeBuS wrote: View Post
JWolf wrote: View Post
What about the fact that Revelation and Dust is book one of a five book mini-series don't some of you get? If everything was wrapped up in the first book, there would be no need for the other four books.

Take a good look at The Empire Strikes Back. It ended with a cliff-hanger and we have to wait for the next movie to find out what happens. It's the same sort of thing here.

It's not supposed to wrap things up in book one. It's supposed to wrap things up in book five. Yes, some things will be wrapped up before book five, but the entire story won't be wrapped up until book five.
For an in depth response, you can simply read back a few pages. But to sum it up: this book had no story arc of its own. Therefore, it's not comparable to TESB, since that movie had a complete arc of its own, even though it ended on a cliff-hanger.
I cannot answer about whether there is a story arc or not as I've not yet read enough. But I do recall the last time we got DS9 and we had the same lynching until the second book came out and then the lynching stopped.

But as for TESB, it was an INCOMPLETE story until we saw the Return of the Jedi. TESB had a beginning, a middle, and NO END. It did not have this arc you are talking about. The arc was only there when the 2nd and 3rd movies were paired up.

This book doesn't need the this story arc you think is missing. It just need to be enjoyable and it needs to start off the FIVE book mini-series. I don't expect this to be a complete book on it's own. I expect it to be part of a FIVE book mini-series. I expect there to be this ARC when you read all FIVE books.

What I am reading is some are not getting just what a FIVE book mini-series actually is. It does not mean that each books has to be standalone. It means they have to work when put together. Do they? I cannot say until after reading all FIVE books.
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Old September 11 2013, 03:09 AM   #213
JD
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JeBuS wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
Not necissarily. Plenty of books that are "standalone" have an open or ambiguous ending.
And besides, at this point it should be common knowledge among Trek Lit readers that the books are interconnected, with arcs crossing through multiple books. So it really shouldn't be that shocking or upsetting when everything isn't completely tied up in a neat little bow at the end of one book, especially if that book is being sold as part 1 of a 5 part series.
I'm not saying that a book should tie everything up in a neat little bow. But it would be nice if *something* got tied up before the end of the book. This book only opened threads. Would you pay to see a movie that ended after the first act?
But isn't that pretty much what Fellowship of the Ring, An Unexpected Journey, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows Part 1, and probably Mockingjay Part 1 are?
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Old September 11 2013, 03:12 AM   #214
JWolf
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JD wrote: View Post
But isn't that pretty much what Fellowship of the Ring, An Unexpected Journey, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows Part 1, and probably Mockingjay Part 1 are?
A lot of TV shows do the same thing with a cliffhanger episode as the last episode of the season to get us to tune back in the next season.

The Destiny trilogy was like that. I don't think they are complete on their own. But together, all three make a complete story.
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Old September 11 2013, 03:23 AM   #215
Sci
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JeBuS wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
You claimed there were no character arcs in this book. I cited several. You then shifted the goalposts by moving from claiming that there were no character arcs to claiming that there wasn't enough resolution.
I stand by my assertion that what you cited were not character arcs.
Complete bullshit. They were character arcs; you just didn't like them.

Sci wrote: View Post
False. The very first blurb announcing The Fall identified Revelation and Dust as the first part of an interconnected mini-series.
<SNIP>

Of course, as a veteran reader of TrekLit, I realize that "The Fall" means it's part of a connected series, just as others before have been.
Meaning you knew full well it was book one of an interconnected miniseries, and it was marketed as such.

JeBuS wrote: View Post
Kertrats47 wrote: View Post
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying. How, exactly, does it "play no role in the novel"? Ezri and Julian are two characters with whom the readers are invested. We care about what happens to them. We see a reconciliation between the two of them that has been a long time coming. How exactly is that not playing a "role in the novel"? It's a part of the on-going story of all of these characters! I guess I'm just having a hard time figuring out what parts of the novel you think "play no role," and what exactly your criteria are for inclusion in the "role-playing" parts of the novel.

You say that the things the novel talks about have "no bearing on the events of this novel." I see it differently. I see these happenings AS the events of this novel. I think it can't be studied in isolation. This novel is a part of the on-going story of Deep Space Nine and its characters.
I suppose this is another basic philosophical difference, then. To me, anything that can be removed from a novel without affecting the outcome should be removed. Chekov's Gun. Their making up served no purpose to the plot of the novel. Nor did the mentions of Quark's financials.
They served the clear purpose of continuing the ongoing serialized story of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, which has always -- on TV and in the Relaunch novels -- contained character-based B-plots that were not directly related to the main plot. Or are you going to say that, for instance, the Quark/Garak scenes should have been removed from "The Way of the Warrior?"
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Old September 11 2013, 03:48 AM   #216
Shane Houston
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci wrote: View Post
JeBuS wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
You claimed there were no character arcs in this book. I cited several. You then shifted the goalposts by moving from claiming that there were no character arcs to claiming that there wasn't enough resolution.
I stand by my assertion that what you cited were not character arcs.
Complete bullshit. They were character arcs; you just didn't like them.



Meaning you knew full well it was book one of an interconnected miniseries, and it was marketed as such.

JeBuS wrote: View Post
Kertrats47 wrote: View Post
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying. How, exactly, does it "play no role in the novel"? Ezri and Julian are two characters with whom the readers are invested. We care about what happens to them. We see a reconciliation between the two of them that has been a long time coming. How exactly is that not playing a "role in the novel"? It's a part of the on-going story of all of these characters! I guess I'm just having a hard time figuring out what parts of the novel you think "play no role," and what exactly your criteria are for inclusion in the "role-playing" parts of the novel.

You say that the things the novel talks about have "no bearing on the events of this novel." I see it differently. I see these happenings AS the events of this novel. I think it can't be studied in isolation. This novel is a part of the on-going story of Deep Space Nine and its characters.
I suppose this is another basic philosophical difference, then. To me, anything that can be removed from a novel without affecting the outcome should be removed. Chekov's Gun. Their making up served no purpose to the plot of the novel. Nor did the mentions of Quark's financials.
They served the clear purpose of continuing the ongoing serialized story of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, which has always -- on TV and in the Relaunch novels -- contained character-based B-plots that were not directly related to the main plot. Or are you going to say that, for instance, the Quark/Garak scenes should have been removed from "The Way of the Warrior?"
To answer your last question. If all Garak and Quark did during the episode was talk about root beer, whether amongst themselves or to other characters, yes they should be removed. Besides, that's a poor example, since their arcs in that episode show them feeling one way about the Federation, and then changing that opinion before the episode ended.

A character arc is to move a character from one point of view to another, and show through the narrative how that change took place. None of the characters in this book grew or changed at all. None of them changed from Raise The Dawn to the end of Revelations and Dust.

Here's a good example of an excellent and actual character arc. In Star Trek II: TWOK, in the beginning of the movie Admiral Kirk felt he was to old to make a difference. In his opinion, galloping around the cosmos is a game for the young. But at the end of the movie, through the arc and over all theme of the movie he changed that view, stating he feels young again.

Another good example is I, Borg. In the beginning of the episode, both Picard and Guinan hated Hugh the drone and was willing to use him as a weapon to destroy the Borg. But thanks to the arc of the episode, we're shown how and why they changed their mind to seeing him as being an individual.

Hell, let's go back to the last two books, Sisko refused to reunite with his family, yet we're shown through the story that he changes his mind and is reunited with his family.

I do not see one example of a proper story arc in this book, and that's why it's not that good in my opinion. And I like DRGIII's books most of the time. Raise The Dawn was excellent. He just didn't deliver in this one. Of course I'm no expert, just a reader with an opinion.
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Last edited by Shane Houston; September 11 2013 at 04:17 AM.
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Old September 11 2013, 02:06 PM   #217
JeBuS
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I think I can fairly well let Halliwell's response stand as my own without making my own point-by-point rebuttal. I'll just add two things.

1) An incomplete story (cliff-hanger) is not an incomplete story arc. A story arc can be fulfilled while leaving room for continuation.

2) I think folks here are intelligent. As such, I think you guys can come to your own opinions about how the novels compare in a literary sense. I think, however, that some of you let your fandom get in the way of that. You're so happy to see any instances of your favorite characters, that you let it blind you to the flaws of the book. You're so happy to see any Trek books, that you let it blind you to the flaws of the books. The TrekLit lines won't die because you allow yourself to see how flawed they are. They will die, though, if their flaws aren't recognized and fixed before a wider audience is turned off of them.
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Old September 11 2013, 03:15 PM   #218
JWolf
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JeBuS wrote: View Post
Kertrats47 wrote: View Post
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying. How, exactly, does it "play no role in the novel"? Ezri and Julian are two characters with whom the readers are invested. We care about what happens to them. We see a reconciliation between the two of them that has been a long time coming. How exactly is that not playing a "role in the novel"? It's a part of the on-going story of all of these characters! I guess I'm just having a hard time figuring out what parts of the novel you think "play no role," and what exactly your criteria are for inclusion in the "role-playing" parts of the novel.

You say that the things the novel talks about have "no bearing on the events of this novel." I see it differently. I see these happenings AS the events of this novel. I think it can't be studied in isolation. This novel is a part of the on-going story of Deep Space Nine and its characters.
I suppose this is another basic philosophical difference, then. To me, anything that can be removed from a novel without affecting the outcome should be removed. Chekov's Gun. Their making up served no purpose to the plot of the novel. Nor did the mentions of Quark's financials.
If you recall in Raise the Dawn that things were somewhat tense between Ezri and Julian. This is the continuing arc from that plot. There's no way you can say it's not and be correct.
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Old September 11 2013, 03:23 PM   #219
JeBuS
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JWolf wrote: View Post
If you recall in Raise the Dawn that things were somewhat tense between Ezri and Julian. This is the continuing arc from that plot. There's no way you can say it's not and be correct.
At this point, I must believe you're purposefully missing my point. In reference to this book, which starts at the first page, and ends at the last, the Ezri-Julian encounter serves no purpose to the plot. It is not a character arc on its own, because it stands in a void, and advances neither characterization. I am reviewing this book. I'm not reviewing Raise the Dawn. I'm not reviewing the rest of The Fall which hasn't been released yet. I am reviewing Revelation and Dust. That is all.

Sci wrote: View Post
They served the clear purpose of continuing the ongoing serialized story of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, which has always -- on TV and in the Relaunch novels -- contained character-based B-plots that were not directly related to the main plot. Or are you going to say that, for instance, the Quark/Garak scenes should have been removed from "The Way of the Warrior?"
There was a nugget here that I missed the first time through, that I think deserves pointing out. This novel was not marketed as a serial. Serials are something entirely different.
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Old September 11 2013, 03:30 PM   #220
Edit_XYZ
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I see the heroic attempts at missing the point via fuzzy logic and rhetoric by Sci, etc continue.

My previous post stands; not even addendums are necessary:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...&postcount=201
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Old September 11 2013, 03:52 PM   #221
JWolf
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Kertrats47

You, Sci&co are trying very hard to miss the point.
For a person who buys this book from a library, not dedicated enough to conduct internet searches and without intending to collect future star trek novels, this book is garbage.
It does NOT stand on its own; indeed, it fails miserably at this.
And, even within the larger trek lit, it is boring.
There are ways to say you did not like the book without resorting to insults. Also, you miss a major point there. Why would someone buy book ONE of a FIVE book mini-series without intending to buy the others? That's just ludicrous if you think that's how it is.

You could say the same thing about the first Destiny book. It did not stand on it's own. None of the Destiny books stood on their own. They needed all three to be complete.

I am a little over 1/3rd into Dust and Revelation and so far I am enjoying it. Not every Star trek book has to be earth shaking or move the characters on in some significant way.

And - a 2 page reconciliation with no connection to the so-called plot line of the novel? Or characters just being themselves? Such developments are supposed to make this novel a "superb character study"? Ridiculous.
It's part of the ongoing DS9 plot. So yes, it does have a connection. That plot thread was started in Raise the Dawn and is continuing here.
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Old September 11 2013, 03:56 PM   #222
JeBuS
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JWolf wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Kertrats47

You, Sci&co are trying very hard to miss the point.
For a person who buys this book from a library, not dedicated enough to conduct internet searches and without intending to collect future star trek novels, this book is garbage.
It does NOT stand on its own; indeed, it fails miserably at this.
And, even within the larger trek lit, it is boring.
There are ways to say you did not like the book without resorting to insults. Also, you miss a major point there. Why would someone buy book ONE of a FIVE book mini-series without intending to buy the others? That's just ludicrous if you think that's how it is.
Because this book does not say "Part one of five." It's as simple as that. It is not marketed as a serial novel. Therefore, it is supposed to be a complete novel on its own. That means, when I review it, I review it from the first page to the last. Nothing more, nothing less.

JWolf wrote: View Post
And - a 2 page reconciliation with no connection to the so-called plot line of the novel? Or characters just being themselves? Such developments are supposed to make this novel a "superb character study"? Ridiculous.
It's part of the ongoing DS9 plot. So yes, it does have a connection. That plot thread was started in Raise the Dawn and is continuing here.
The plot thread may continue here, but it is also completely pointless here. Because it does not service the plot of Revelation and Dust, it should not be part of the novel. No doubt, in some future The Fall novel, Ezri-Julian relationship will play a role. That novel is where this little 2-page kiss-and-make-up should occur. Because that is the point where it will service the plot.
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Old September 11 2013, 03:58 PM   #223
Edit_XYZ
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JWolf, only a small percent of the readership is dedicated enough to actually know this is the first of 5 books called 'The Fall' (you stubbornly refuse to understand this); this book was NOT marketed as a serial.
For the rest of the readership (which is the majority), this book will be garbage.

PS - An insult is, by definition, a false assertion. Everything I said in my previous posts is true AKA no insults are present.
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Old September 11 2013, 04:08 PM   #224
JWolf
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
JWolf, only a small percent of the readership is dedicated enough to actually know this is the first of 5 books called 'The Fall' (you stubbornly refuse to understand this); this book was NOT marketed as a serial.
For the rest of the readership (which is the majority), this book will be garbage.
And you know that only a small percentage will know that this is part of a mini-series how?

PS - An insult is, by definition, a false assertion. Everything I said in my previous posts is true AKA no insults are present.
There are ways to say you disliked a book that are not insulting. Calling it garbage is insulting. I feel sorry for you that you just don't get this.
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Old September 11 2013, 04:12 PM   #225
Edit_XYZ
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JWolf wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
JWolf, only a small percent of the readership is dedicated enough to actually know this is the first of 5 books called 'The Fall' (you stubbornly refuse to understand this); this book was NOT marketed as a serial.
For the rest of the readership (which is the majority), this book will be garbage.
And you know that only a small percentage will know that this is part of a mini-series how?
So - you think the majority of the readership actually searches the internet for trek lit news or collects trek books?
Good luck with this.

PS - An insult is, by definition, a false assertion. Everything I said in my previous posts is true AKA no insults are present.
There are ways to say you disliked a book that are not insulting. Calling it garbage is insulting. I feel sorry for you that you just don't get this.
Saying "For a person who buys this book from a library, not dedicated enough to conduct internet searches and without intending to collect future star trek novels, this book is garbage." is also accurate.
Deal with it.
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