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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Revelation and Dust.
Outstanding 29 25.89%
Above Average 45 40.18%
Average 25 22.32%
Below Average 7 6.25%
Poor 6 5.36%
Voters: 112. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 10 2013, 03:40 AM   #196
Christopher
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JeBuS wrote: View Post
And the book was not explicitly marketed as being Part One of a mini-series.
Err, it's got a big title banner with Star Trek: The Fall on it, and then the individual book title under that. So that does indicate that it's part of a sequence of books called The Fall. Maybe it's not quite as explicit as a "Part One of Five" subtitle would be, but it's pretty clear just from the title that it's not a complete standalone.

As for marketing, just about everything I've seen online about The Fall has promoted it as a 5-book series.
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Old September 10 2013, 12:40 PM   #197
JeBuS
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci wrote: View Post
"Books ought to be self-contained" is a statement of objective creative obligations. It uses imperative language that establishes requirements rather than acknowledging diverse creative tastes and goals. If you had said, "I prefer books that are self-contained," your argument would have been more fair.
I think you're doing a good job of splitting hairs here, arguing with the reviewer's language rather than the substance of the review. Considering this is a review thread, I would think it implied that my review is subjective, no?

Sci wrote: View Post
You claimed there were no character arcs in this book. I cited several. You then shifted the goalposts by moving from claiming that there were no character arcs to claiming that there wasn't enough resolution.
I stand by my assertion that what you cited were not character arcs. They were the novelization equivalent of screen-time, but there was no arc. An arc involves moving the characters in some manner, if not physically, then emotionally, philosophically, etc. None of the characters in this book did so, save Keev, whose B-Plot I've previously noted was the only part of this book I didn't have a problem with. (Save that it started slowly and was basically unconnected to the rest of the book, but that could be blamed on the rest of the book being so poor.)

Sci wrote: View Post
False. The very first blurb announcing The Fall identified Revelation and Dust as the first part of an interconnected mini-series.
Perhaps it did, but my book doesn't identify itself as an incomplete story, requiring other purchases for fulfillment. And now that I look, my booksellers don't list it as such, either. Of course, as a veteran reader of TrekLit, I realize that "The Fall" means it's part of a connected series, just as others before have been. But I still expect a complete story arc each book. As I said in my original review, never before have I felt so cheated by a Trek book. Through all the mini-series that have gone before, at least each book had its own arc.

I think it obviously comes down to our philosophical differences on what a book should be. I believe that each book, no matter the genre, should stand on its own. That's how they get reviewed, so that's how I review them. This book relies on the reader to go out and buy another book to pick up almost every story thread it started. Perhaps this is a decision made by the publisher, I don't know. But it's a lousy decision, and so is the book.
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Old September 10 2013, 04:31 PM   #198
Kertrats47
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JeBuS wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
You claimed there were no character arcs in this book. I cited several. You then shifted the goalposts by moving from claiming that there were no character arcs to claiming that there wasn't enough resolution.
I stand by my assertion that what you cited were not character arcs. They were the novelization equivalent of screen-time, but there was no arc. An arc involves moving the characters in some manner, if not physically, then emotionally, philosophically, etc. None of the characters in this book did so, save Keev, whose B-Plot I've previously noted was the only part of this book I didn't have a problem with. (Save that it started slowly and was basically unconnected to the rest of the book, but that could be blamed on the rest of the book being so poor.)
Regardless whether or not you thought it was "good" or not, how can you claim there was no "moving" of the characters in an emotional manner? I cite the reconciliation between Ezri and Julian as but one example. There is a VERY clear evolution of that relationship.
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Old September 10 2013, 04:38 PM   #199
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Kertrats47 wrote: View Post
Regardless whether or not you thought it was "good" or not, how can you claim there was no "moving" of the characters in an emotional manner? I cite the reconciliation between Ezri and Julian as but one example. There is a VERY clear evolution of that relationship.
There was no arc involved. One page Ezri frets, the next page they kiss and make up. It plays no role in the novel. And because it plays no role in this novel, it needn't be included in this novel. Save it for the novel where Ezri's relationship with Julian comes into play.

On a broader scale, this novel is ripe with exactly that situation. Things are brought up that have no bearing on anything else in the novel. The constant reminders of Quark's financial situation are but one example. They had no bearing on the events of this novel, yet were brought up by multiple characters on multiple occasions.
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Old September 10 2013, 04:49 PM   #200
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying. How, exactly, does it "play no role in the novel"? Ezri and Julian are two characters with whom the readers are invested. We care about what happens to them. We see a reconciliation between the two of them that has been a long time coming. How exactly is that not playing a "role in the novel"? It's a part of the on-going story of all of these characters! I guess I'm just having a hard time figuring out what parts of the novel you think "play no role," and what exactly your criteria are for inclusion in the "role-playing" parts of the novel.

You say that the things the novel talks about have "no bearing on the events of this novel." I see it differently. I see these happenings AS the events of this novel. I think it can't be studied in isolation. This novel is a part of the on-going story of Deep Space Nine and its characters.
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Old September 10 2013, 05:02 PM   #201
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Kertrats47

You, Sci&co are trying very hard to miss the point.
For a person who buys this book from a library, not dedicated enough to conduct internet searches and without intending to collect future star trek novels, this book is garbage.
It does NOT stand on its own; indeed, it fails miserably at this.
And, even within the larger trek lit, it is boring.

And - a 2 page reconciliation with no connection to the so-called plot line of the novel? Or characters just being themselves? Such developments are supposed to make this novel a "superb character study"? Ridiculous.
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Old September 10 2013, 05:06 PM   #202
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Kertrats47 wrote: View Post
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying. How, exactly, does it "play no role in the novel"? Ezri and Julian are two characters with whom the readers are invested. We care about what happens to them. We see a reconciliation between the two of them that has been a long time coming. How exactly is that not playing a "role in the novel"? It's a part of the on-going story of all of these characters! I guess I'm just having a hard time figuring out what parts of the novel you think "play no role," and what exactly your criteria are for inclusion in the "role-playing" parts of the novel.

You say that the things the novel talks about have "no bearing on the events of this novel." I see it differently. I see these happenings AS the events of this novel. I think it can't be studied in isolation. This novel is a part of the on-going story of Deep Space Nine and its characters.
I suppose this is another basic philosophical difference, then. To me, anything that can be removed from a novel without affecting the outcome should be removed. Chekov's Gun. Their making up served no purpose to the plot of the novel. Nor did the mentions of Quark's financials.

Now, let's say in book #2 of The Fall, Julian and Ezri must work together to foil a dastardly plot by blah blah blah. That's where you put the stuff about them making up. Because that's where it will serve some purpose to the plot! Yes, I want to know how these characters are continuing their lives, but I want the accounts of their behaviors to matter to the novel! Otherwise, why not just create a daily diary for each character and call that the next novel?
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Old September 10 2013, 05:12 PM   #203
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JeBuS wrote: View Post
I suppose this is another basic philosophical difference, then. To me, anything that can be removed from a novel without affecting the outcome should be removed. Chekov's Gun. Their making up served no purpose to the plot of the novel. Nor did the mentions of Quark's financials.

Now, let's say in book #2 of The Fall, Julian and Ezri must work together to foil a dastardly plot by blah blah blah. That's where you put the stuff about them making up. Because that's where it will serve some purpose to the plot! Yes, I want to know how these characters are continuing their lives, but I want the accounts of their behaviors to matter to the novel! Otherwise, why not just create a daily diary for each character and call that the next novel?
Fair enough. I guess we just do have differing viewpoints, and the fact that this is the first book of a five-book series tells me that many of these moments will pay off in the future. But I can understand the desire to see the pay-off right away.
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Old September 10 2013, 05:20 PM   #204
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Kertrats47 wrote: View Post
Fair enough. I guess we just do have differing viewpoints, and the fact that this is the first book of a five-book series tells me that many of these moments will pay off in the future. But I can understand the desire to see the pay-off right away.
It's not just about immediate gratification. It's about any gratification. The first chapter hints at the disastrous event. That's the hook. The rest of the novel has almost no bearing upon it. When the novel finally does turn to satisfying the hook, it's too late, and the novel is over. You've just read all those pages without the hook ever being resolved.
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Old September 10 2013, 06:07 PM   #205
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I voted above average. It would have been Outstanding, but the Kira stuff with her seeing/being an ancient bajoran felt pointless and just wasn't that interesting. Besides that the book was very good, and I'm definately exciting to read what happens next.
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Old September 10 2013, 09:03 PM   #206
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sure the book will end up alright when viewed through the lense of the entire 5 part series, but I was definitely a little disappointed that it didn't stand on its own a little more WHILE contributing to the series. Felt like watching the first act of a tv episode, except in this case, we paid for the whole episode.

Not saying you had to pay off the whole thing right away, but there needed to be some smaller arcs that COULD be resolved as part of the overall narrative. This was just setup for later and really doesn't stand on its own very well, IMO. The Typhon Pact novels had their own story while contributing to the overall series, whereas this was just the warmup, but didn't do much on its own.

What story was just told? Don't list something that happened (the obvious event), but how would you define how this story breaks out? Was there a beginning, middle, end? Did we learn anything about anything? What was the obstacle that was overcome (or failed to overcome)? Stuff just was introduced or HAPPENED, and we'll presumably get the rest of the story later. All intro, no payoff.
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Old September 10 2013, 10:29 PM   #207
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Finished it, liked it. Rated it above average, as I liked the modern day bits but the Kira/prophet bits bored me. *lol* Looking forward to the next one.

Regarding the current debate... I think it would have been better off labled ;The Fall Book One. Then you'd know better what you were getting into.
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Old September 10 2013, 11:52 PM   #208
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I rated it below average.

Half of it felt like it was a dream/vision sequence. It wasn't interesting at all and I ended up skipping most of it. In the end I felt it didn't even really matter.

The other "real trek" half was a big let down. A lot of it was spent talking about the new Ds9. I get it. It replaces a prominent setting and you want to showcase it but do you really need to have 3 (?) opening ceremonies complete with speeches, albeit for differing sections.

Also the end of a prominent trek novel character didn't really do it justice. There was so much more opportunity to have political intrigue in the story but it wasn't made to full use. You have almost all the major leaders concentrated in one place and very little page time was dedicated to them.

This was a huge let down, I had hoped for more from the novel.
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Old September 11 2013, 12:23 AM   #209
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

What about the fact that Revelation and Dust is book one of a five book mini-series don't some of you get? If everything was wrapped up in the first book, there would be no need for the other four books.

Take a good look at The Empire Strikes Back. It ended with a cliff-hanger and we have to wait for the next movie to find out what happens. It's the same sort of thing here.

It's not supposed to wrap things up in book one. It's supposed to wrap things up in book five. Yes, some things will be wrapped up before book five, but the entire story won't be wrapped up until book five.

Now, onto the actual book. I'm not finished reading it, but one thing I am liking is finding out what's happened to some of the characters during the two year time span. For example, Sisko and family have moved on since we last saw them. That is character development right there.
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Old September 11 2013, 12:36 AM   #210
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

average

i thought the first half of the book was way too slow and boring. a lot of that has to do with the authors writing style imo. I simply don't like how he writes. way too wordy for my taste.

it did pick up in the second half, but the death of Bacco fell flat cause you see it coming a mile away. Loved that Taranatar is back as well as Kira. The DS9 security crew is certainly the dumbest group of peeps in Starfleet.

in the end, it's about what I expected it would be. I really wish the DS9 books would get a different writer. the excitement of the initial relaunch books is simply missing.
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