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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old September 10 2013, 04:50 AM   #46
M.A.C.O.
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

If you haven't listened to the Braga and Moore commentary on the Generations Bluray you need to. They go in to detail about everything that went wrong with GEN. Off the top of my head I can list a few things.

1. The script that became GEN was never completed. It was just more complete than a script by another writer who was commission to write a script without any TOS characters.

2. Interference from the Studio. Paramount execs mandated that GEN had to have 10 minutes of TOS in the beginning of the film and the TOS characters (Kirk) brought back toward the end of the film.

3. The Data comedy for also mandated by the studio. In a film about death and mortality, the Paramount execs wanted a comedy.

4. Klingons were another mandate by Paramount. Reason being is their notoriety in pop culture.

5. There was to be more action in the film. The transition from Kirk dying on the Ent-B was to be followed by a fire fight on board the observatory where the crew of the Ent-D found Soran. The Enterprise vs Romulans in a starship battle and shootout on the observatory. It was Jeri Taylor who suggested that the audience would find that boring, according to Brannon Braga. So the decided to do something off beat instead.

6. The Nexus was a convoluted device used only to unite Kirk and Picard. It's a device that Braga and Moore admit to never really defining on the commentary.

7. Other convoluted things like Picard having to crawl through a hole to get through a shield.
Why Kirk and Picard just don't take the Nexus back in time to before Soran launched his missiles (like back to the beginning of the movie when Soran was freely walking around the Enterprise-D).
How to isolate Picard and Soran on the planet. By kidnapping Geordi and then exchanging him for Picard to the Duras sisters but not before they beam him to the surface so he can talk to Soran. And a whole lot of other bullshit.

8. I'm sure most of you know that Braga wanted to destroy the Ent-D for the season finale of season 6. The Ent-D is casually destroyed for no other reason besides Braga wanting to do a scene with the sacuer section crashing on the planet.

9. Kirk and Picard making eggs. Not Braga's idea. He wanted Kirk and Picard to be fighting eachother or together on their respective ships. Moore and Berman didn't want to do what was expected with these two captains meeting so they went for something offbeat and uncanny.

10. Kirk's death originally being him simply shot in the back by Soran. Then reshot with a price tag of $6 million to involve Kirk falling to his death. With protests from the director David Carson not to do it and the studio ignoring him. Shatner told Berman, Braga and Moore there was no point for Kirk to be in this movie. Which according to Braga and Moore they countered, but Shatner rebutted their claims. Shatner agreed to have Kirk die because at the time he did not see a future for his character. That is to say there would be no more material/movies with the original characters. Braga and Moore admit their reach exceeded their grasp when handling the concept and the film as a whole didn't play up the themes they wanted to.

So yeah go watch the GEN commentary with them now! It's pretty funny in most parts. Also watch GEN with the commentary with David Carson and Manny Coto. They make the film sound redeemable at parts.

Last edited by M.A.C.O.; September 10 2013 at 02:37 PM.
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Old September 10 2013, 06:05 PM   #47
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
5. There was to be more action in the film. The transition from Kirk dying on the Ent-B was to be followed by a fire fight on board the observatory where the crew of the Ent-D found Soran. The Enterprise vs Romulans in a starship battle and shootout on the observatory. It was Jeri Taylor who suggested that the audience would find that boring, according to Brannon Braga. So the decided to do something off beat instead.
I would have enjoyed this. Especially the starship battle with the Romulans.
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Old September 10 2013, 07:42 PM   #48
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

Agreed. Much better expenditure than the boating scene, and much better way to establish the crew as awesome ass-kickers.

Sometimes, action for the sake of action is stupid, but in this case it makes sense.
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Old September 11 2013, 04:20 AM   #49
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

^^ Yeah someone should've told Jeri Taylor that they were making a movie not a TV show anymore. There are plenty of actionless episodes in Trek. Movies rely on rewatch value to make money. I remember a lot of my friends going to see and resee FC because of the cool starship battle at the beginning. Hell I also remember seeing Stargate a bunch of time in theatres, and I think that made more money than GEN.
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Old September 11 2013, 03:03 PM   #50
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I would love seeing Berman, Moore and Brage pull a Pegg & Orci saying "What, you didn't like our film? Fuck off!"
Wouldn't work the same since Berman, Braga and Moore made a film that clearly was not a blockbuster.
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Old September 11 2013, 04:50 PM   #51
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

Praetor wrote: View Post
Agreed. Much better expenditure than the boating scene, and much better way to establish the crew as awesome ass-kickers.

Sometimes, action for the sake of action is stupid, but in this case it makes sense.
I'm skeptical of that. It seems to me challenging to go directly from a scene of a starship being ravaged and blown up by a space warp thing to a scene of a starship being ravaged and blown up by other starship while keeping it clear that there's a century that's passed between the two. Yes, yes, Trek Fans will have no trouble spotting that in one case it's the Enterprise B getting blown up and in the other case it's the Enterprise D getting blown up, but visually, especially with the quick cuts and dark scenes endemic to modern action and battle scenes, it's going to be very hard to avoid confusing the audience.

Now, they could manage this. In ``All Good Things'' the (pretty much) same team managed to split the action over three separate time periods, two of them with not much visual distinction between them, without getting confusing. They were able to lay out in story what was happening before the audience saw it, and to include a narrative hook that marked ``time period about to change''. I'm not sure what would be so clean and clear a break on-film between the ship-battling-storm and the ship-battling-ships scenes, though.

Cutting from after-the-storm to the holodeck-sailing-ship does, whatever its dramatic flaws, read very cleanly.
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Old September 11 2013, 05:17 PM   #52
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

Peach Wookiee wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I would love seeing Berman, Moore and Brage pull a Pegg & Orci saying "What, you didn't like our film? Fuck off!"
Wouldn't work the same since Berman, Braga and Moore made a film that clearly was not a blockbuster.
Generations was #4 of all released PG rated films in 1994.
First Contact was #5 of all released PG-13 rated films in 1996.
Star Trek was #4 of all released PG-13 rated films in 2009.

Can say what you want, those films did well almost 15 to 20 years ago.
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Old September 11 2013, 10:05 PM   #53
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

Nebusj wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
Agreed. Much better expenditure than the boating scene, and much better way to establish the crew as awesome ass-kickers.

Sometimes, action for the sake of action is stupid, but in this case it makes sense.
I'm skeptical of that. It seems to me challenging to go directly from a scene of a starship being ravaged and blown up by a space warp thing to a scene of a starship being ravaged and blown up by other starship while keeping it clear that there's a century that's passed between the two. Yes, yes, Trek Fans will have no trouble spotting that in one case it's the Enterprise B getting blown up and in the other case it's the Enterprise D getting blown up, but visually, especially with the quick cuts and dark scenes endemic to modern action and battle scenes, it's going to be very hard to avoid confusing the audience.

Now, they could manage this. In ``All Good Things'' the (pretty much) same team managed to split the action over three separate time periods, two of them with not much visual distinction between them, without getting confusing. They were able to lay out in story what was happening before the audience saw it, and to include a narrative hook that marked ``time period about to change''. I'm not sure what would be so clean and clear a break on-film between the ship-battling-storm and the ship-battling-ships scenes, though.

Cutting from after-the-storm to the holodeck-sailing-ship does, whatever its dramatic flaws, read very cleanly.
Generally agreed, but I think they could have made it work. Plus it'd almost be a way of saying "the more things change, the more they stay the same."
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Old September 12 2013, 01:44 AM   #54
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

^ I think that scenario would be workable if the Ent-B was under attack from another ship when Kirk bites the dust, rather than the Nexus. There would be a certain artistic flair in cutting from the Excelsior Class ship in a heated battle with a Romulan cruiser, to the Enterprise D doing the same "75 years later".

Of course, then the structure of the script changes, because without the Nexus you don't have a 'portal' through which Kirk can come forward in time and meet Picard. Unless the battle takes place on the cusp of the Nexus?
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Old September 12 2013, 02:13 AM   #55
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
5. There was to be more action in the film. The transition from Kirk dying on the Ent-B was to be followed by a fire fight on board the observatory where the crew of the Ent-D found Soran. The Enterprise vs Romulans in a starship battle and shootout on the observatory. It was Jeri Taylor who suggested that the audience would find that boring, according to Brannon Braga. So the decided to do something off beat instead.
That's brilliant. Instead of a scene that gets us right into the story, we get a scene that has fuck all to do with anything. Good thinking, Jeri.

9. Kirk and Picard making eggs. Not Braga's idea. He wanted Kirk and Picard to be fighting eachother or together on their respective ships. Moore and Berman didn't want to do what was expected with these two captains meeting so they went for something offbeat and uncanny.
And Moore credits Jeri Taylor for this decision, too.
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Old September 12 2013, 04:12 AM   #56
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

^ I did not know that. So we have Jeri Taylor to thank for nerfing the TNG crew in GEN and Michael Piller for nerfing the crew in INS.

Really disingenuous when you compare their contributions to the films and all the go get'em action that was on VOY. I say that as Piller and Taylor remained producers on VOY even though they didn't have as many writing credits as Brannon Braga. It was Jeri Taylor who helped craft a lot of the VOY characters, molded Janeway and decided to put 7 of 9 in the catsuit after all.
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Old September 12 2013, 03:51 PM   #57
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

Lance wrote: View Post
^ I think that scenario would be workable if the Ent-B was under attack from another ship when Kirk bites the dust, rather than the Nexus. There would be a certain artistic flair in cutting from the Excelsior Class ship in a heated battle with a Romulan cruiser, to the Enterprise D doing the same "75 years later".

Of course, then the structure of the script changes, because without the Nexus you don't have a 'portal' through which Kirk can come forward in time and meet Picard. Unless the battle takes place on the cusp of the Nexus?
Say, that's a better idea right there.
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Old September 30 2013, 04:42 AM   #58
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

It seems Generations is either the best Star Trek movie or the worst one ever, depending on how people look at it. I personally think the movie could have been better; for me, it's not because Kirk died, but because the death could have been a much better one.

Here are what I could have changed:

1. Feature more of the TOS cast
2. Kirk and Picard have more time together
3. Put a focus on the Veridian III natives
4. Show Soran's version of the Nexus
5. Get rid of Guinan in the Nexus. She explains the nature of the Nexus to Picard on the Enterprise-D, not inside the Nexus.

To me, it seems the producers wanted to tell a big story but had to cram it into a feature-length film. It would probably have been understandable had the producers made Generations longer; I think three (or even four) hours would be acceptable.

More particularly, here is my idea:

The Enterprise-D engages and defeats the Duras sisters (but not necessarily killing them, per the other thread) as normal. The ship suffers damage, but not enough to crash onto the surface of Veridian III.

Picard beams himself and a few security officers down to the surface to stop Soran. The redshirts quickly die, Soran succeeds, and he and Picard are both transported into the Nexus. Picard sees his family and reluctantly joins them for the evening. However, deep down, he knows it's not real, and he asks for a moment alone.

"Papa, are you all right?"
"Yes, my dear René. I just need a short rest. Why don't you go play with your siblings?"


He then contemplates what Guinan had told him while the movie cuts to Soran's version of the Nexus, which has much darker themes and features things like war and conquest. Some time later, Picard remembers the Enterprise-B incident. He wonders where Kirk is, and he is transported to the Rockies.

He meets Kirk and tries to explain that they are in an illusion, like before. But Kirk is too eager to meet a fellow Starfleet captain and says they can talk about that later. They share a few tales before Picard finally insists there is a more pressing issue. After a lot of convincing, Kirk notices a lot of inconsistencies and feels something is wrong. The two captains then leave the Nexus.

Both captains then try to stop Soran, but the missile launches anyway. Fortunately, Kirk and activated the self-destruct mechanism, and the missile explodes a few seconds later.

Soran angrily decides to seek revenge on Picard; he boards his ship (which was not in the movie) and goes to attack the Enterprise-D, damaging it even more. Miraculously, Kirk and Picard are both able to be beamed back to the ship. The crew are eager to meet Kirk, but he tells them there's time for it later.

"I'd love to meet everyone here, but first we must take care of business."

The situation is becoming worse as Soran continues to attack, so Picard and Kirk beam the rest of the crew to the planet. Soran keeps attacking, and the ship is in an extremely bad shape. Convinced that there are few survivors, Soran transports himself aboard the Enterprise-D to kill any remaining survivors, and to use it to take him to the Nexus as his own ship's propulsion systems are too damaged by return fire.

There is a firefight aboard the Enterprise-D in which debris injures all three parties. Soran is able to limp towards the bridge controls while Picard and Kirk are under fallen debris. Kirk says he can't let Soran succeed; he manages to free himself demands the auto-destruct code from Picard, who reluctantly gives to him, and then he beams Picard back to the planet. He manages to briefly subdue Soran before initiating the auto-destruct sequence. Soran gets back up and uses the remaining functional engine to turn the Enterprise-D towards the Nexus. The ship explodes just as it enters the Nexus; the fates of Soran and Kirk are deliberately left ambiguous as to allow a possibility of their return.

Back on the planet, the Veridian III natives welcome the crew and show their hospitality while the crew awaits the rescue ships. Picard goes to a quiet area and wonders if Kirk managed to go back into the Nexus before the ship exploded.

Some time later, Picard attends a grand celebration of Kirk's life at Federation headquarters. Some more time later, the christening of the Enterprise-E is shown, just like how the movie began.

Last edited by ixfd64; September 30 2013 at 04:57 AM.
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Old September 30 2013, 12:54 PM   #59
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

Even in the 90s, a four hour long star trek movie was not even remotely a possibility...
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Old September 30 2013, 06:00 PM   #60
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Re: Better ideas for Generations

For the record, the 1990 film Dances with Wolves ran for 181 minutes, or 236 if you're talking about the extended cut.

But yeah, the movie would have to be damn good or else the audience would go "TL;DW" and walk out.
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