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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Revelation and Dust.
Outstanding 29 25.00%
Above Average 46 39.66%
Average 27 23.28%
Below Average 8 6.90%
Poor 6 5.17%
Voters: 116. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 9 2013, 11:17 PM   #181
JeBuS
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci wrote: View Post
Fortunately, such a scenario does not apply to the superb character study that is Revelation and Dust.
Can you expand upon that? Which characters were advanced in this novel in such a manner that you would call it superb? I don't recall any character advancement nor growth. Every character I can think of remained in place (with the one notable exception all readers are aware of), without value systems being checked, without any moral quandaries.
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Old September 9 2013, 11:26 PM   #182
Shane Houston
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci wrote: View Post
JeBuS wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Any work of literature can be summed up in a few sentences if you "tried hard enough." This fact is utterly irrelevant to any given work's actual literary merits.
True enough, but when this literary work's merits hardly surpass such a summation, it does not speak well of it.
Fortunately, such a scenario does not apply to the superb character study that is Revelation and Dust.

Would you mind sighting one example of that assertion. Which character was studied? Because I for one am confused and may have read the wrong novel. For example:



Other than that I didn't see any other character growth beyond that example.
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Old September 9 2013, 11:29 PM   #183
Corran Horn
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Man of Steel wrote: View Post
Mimi wrote: View Post
Yep! I absolutely love the german covers. I actually made myself a bunch in photoshop, this is just the one I ended up liking the best.

This is a good link to sort through some of them.
Wonder why Germany gets better covers then us.
I remember this coming up in regards to Star Wars books - I don't remember the reason, though.
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Old September 9 2013, 11:42 PM   #184
Sci
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JeBuS wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Fortunately, such a scenario does not apply to the superb character study that is Revelation and Dust.
Can you expand upon that? Which characters were advanced in this novel in such a manner that you would call it superb? I don't recall any character advancement nor growth. Every character I can think of remained in place (with the one notable exception all readers are aware of), without value systems being checked, without any moral quandaries.
If you don't see character arcs in Ro, Kira/Keva, Sisko, Odo, Bashir, Dax, and Quark -- amongst others -- then you weren't paying attention.
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Old September 9 2013, 11:51 PM   #185
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^ Some of them may have had a story arc through it, but known of them particularly developed, every single one of those you mentioned, including Quark, have acted like they did in this story for many many years.

The only thing that seemed to develop over the course of the story was the new station.
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Old September 9 2013, 11:54 PM   #186
JeBuS
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci wrote: View Post
If you don't see character arcs in Ro, Kira/Keva, Sisko, Odo, Bashir, Dax, and Quark -- amongst others -- then you weren't paying attention.
Dimesdan wrote: View Post
^ Some of them may have had a story arc through it, but known of them particularly developed, every single one of those you mentioned, including Quark, have acted like they did in this story for many many years.

The only thing that seemed to develop over the course of the story was the new station.
This is precisely what I mean. Yes, there is "screen time" for all of these characters, but they don't do anything. Their stories don't advance the characterizations. They don't advance the universe. There were a couple of events that were biggies, obviously. But the characters could have been swapped with any old redshirt, and just as much would have happened.

Now, I know some will say, but what about all that introspection that these characters did? The problem is, even the introspection was a rehash that failed to build up to anything.
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Old September 10 2013, 12:16 AM   #187
JWolf
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Man of Steel wrote: View Post
Mimi wrote: View Post
Yep! I absolutely love the german covers. I actually made myself a bunch in photoshop, this is just the one I ended up liking the best.

This is a good link to sort through some of them.
Wonder why Germany gets better covers then us.
That's easy to answer. Because Germany is behind. So they get to see the covers in use in the US and have time to then make better looking covers.
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Old September 10 2013, 12:34 AM   #188
Sci
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JeBuS wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
If you don't see character arcs in Ro, Kira/Keva, Sisko, Odo, Bashir, Dax, and Quark -- amongst others -- then you weren't paying attention.
Dimesdan wrote: View Post
^ Some of them may have had a story arc through it, but known of them particularly developed, every single one of those you mentioned, including Quark, have acted like they did in this story for many many years.

The only thing that seemed to develop over the course of the story was the new station.
This is precisely what I mean. Yes, there is "screen time" for all of these characters, but they don't do anything. Their stories don't advance the characterizations. They don't advance the universe. There were a couple of events that were biggies, obviously. But the characters could have been swapped with any old redshirt, and just as much would have happened.

Now, I know some will say, but what about all that introspection that these characters did? The problem is, even the introspection was a rehash that failed to build up to anything.
I really don't know how you can say there was no advancement to the characters when it's very clear that, for instance, Ro has an entire arc about what the constant catastrophes on DS9 are doing to her state of mind; how Sisko is re-adjusting to family life and to the possibility that his daughter may have some role to play in future situations with the Prophets; how Odo is coping with the loss of the only two things he evert really loved, Kira and the link; how Bashir and Dax are finally moving on from the pain they caused one-another; how Bacco was fighting to overcome her grief at Esperanza's death and yet continue the work of peace-building; how Quark is continuing to adjust to his relationship with Ro; and of course how Kira is learning about her new role from the Prophets.

Now, maybe you don't think there's enough payoff there. My rebuttal to that argument is, "That's what they said when Rough Beasts of Empire came out. It all paid off amazingly in Plagues of Night/Raise the Dawn."

But to say there was neither new introspection, nor character advancement, or to say that it could have been any old redshirt, is just false.
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Old September 10 2013, 01:42 AM   #189
Paris
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci wrote: View Post
JeBuS wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
If you don't see character arcs in Ro, Kira/Keva, Sisko, Odo, Bashir, Dax, and Quark -- amongst others -- then you weren't paying attention.
Dimesdan wrote: View Post
^ Some of them may have had a story arc through it, but known of them particularly developed, every single one of those you mentioned, including Quark, have acted like they did in this story for many many years.

The only thing that seemed to develop over the course of the story was the new station.
This is precisely what I mean. Yes, there is "screen time" for all of these characters, but they don't do anything. Their stories don't advance the characterizations. They don't advance the universe. There were a couple of events that were biggies, obviously. But the characters could have been swapped with any old redshirt, and just as much would have happened.

Now, I know some will say, but what about all that introspection that these characters did? The problem is, even the introspection was a rehash that failed to build up to anything.
I really don't know how you can say there was no advancement to the characters when it's very clear that, for instance, Ro has an entire arc about what the constant catastrophes on DS9 are doing to her state of mind; how Sisko is re-adjusting to family life and to the possibility that his daughter may have some role to play in future situations with the Prophets; how Odo is coping with the loss of the only two things he evert really loved, Kira and the link; how Bashir and Dax are finally moving on from the pain they caused one-another; how Bacco was fighting to overcome her grief at Esperanza's death and yet continue the work of peace-building; how Quark is continuing to adjust to his relationship with Ro; and of course how Kira is learning about her new role from the Prophets.

Now, maybe you don't think there's enough payoff there. My rebuttal to that argument is, "That's what they said when Rough Beasts of Empire came out. It all paid off amazingly in Plagues of Night/Raise the Dawn."

But to say there was neither new introspection, nor character advancement, or to say that it could have been any old redshirt, is just false.
if there was a "like" button, I would push it. Totally agree. Tons of people said the exact same shit when RBoE came out. It's too bad people's memories are so short. Payoff will come. Personally...I can't wait to read more about Raiq. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I don't expect the real payoff for a few books. I love that stuff comes slowly. It makes the reading experience that much more rewarding
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Old September 10 2013, 02:09 AM   #190
JeBuS
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci wrote: View Post
Now, maybe you don't think there's enough payoff there. My rebuttal to that argument is, "That's what they said when Rough Beasts of Empire came out. It all paid off amazingly in Plagues of Night/Raise the Dawn."

But to say there was neither new introspection, nor character advancement, or to say that it could have been any old redshirt, is just false.
This leads back to my previous comment on the matter. Books should be self-contained. Every book has a first page and a last page. The payoff should come somewhere before the end of the last page. If there is no payoff in this book, it's not worth reading. Now, if the book were advertised as "Part 1 of 2" or "Part 1 of 5" that's a different matter entirely. But this book had no such warning. Which is why it's a poor effort, selling itself as something it isn't, which is a complete book.

Speaking of Rough Beasts, I had to go look it up, because it turns out, it was also entirely forgettable.

If details need to be in place for another book, then put them in the other book! I don't need a book dedicated to world building, with little else of merit. Especially when very little is built. A couple of major occurrences do not a book make. Cut out the important bits from this book, put them into the books where they will actually matter, and save me some time and money.

Last edited by JeBuS; September 10 2013 at 02:29 AM.
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Old September 10 2013, 02:10 AM   #191
Masiral
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci wrote: View Post
Now, maybe you don't think there's enough payoff there. My rebuttal to that argument is, "That's what they said when Rough Beasts of Empire came out. It all paid off amazingly in Plagues of Night/Raise the Dawn."
And considering The Fall was described as a five-part miniseries taking place over 60 days, it is even more explicit that the payoff will come later.
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Old September 10 2013, 02:34 AM   #192
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Not necissarily. Plenty of books that are "standalone" have an open or ambiguous ending.
And besides, at this point it should be common knowledge among Trek Lit readers that the books are interconnected, with arcs crossing through multiple books. So it really shouldn't be that shocking or upsetting when everything isn't completely tied up in a neat little bow at the end of one book, especially if that book is being sold as part 1 of a 5 part series.
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Old September 10 2013, 02:48 AM   #193
Sci
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JeBuS wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Now, maybe you don't think there's enough payoff there. My rebuttal to that argument is, "That's what they said when Rough Beasts of Empire came out. It all paid off amazingly in Plagues of Night/Raise the Dawn."

But to say there was neither new introspection, nor character advancement, or to say that it could have been any old redshirt, is just false.
This leads back to my previous comment on the matter. Books should be self-contained.
Says who? This is a really silly argument when literature is full of inter-connected book series -- everything from Tolkien to A Song of Fire and Ice to Harry Potter to John le Care. Especially for a book that is explicitly marketed as being Part One of an interconnected miniseries.

Hey, listen, if it didn't work for you, it didn't work for you. But acknowledge the subjective nature of your tastes instead of making claims about the content that are false, moving the goalposts, and declaring that all books should live up to arbitrary standards of what constitutes quality.
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Last edited by Sci; September 10 2013 at 03:01 AM.
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Old September 10 2013, 02:55 AM   #194
JeBuS
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JD wrote: View Post
Not necissarily. Plenty of books that are "standalone" have an open or ambiguous ending.
And besides, at this point it should be common knowledge among Trek Lit readers that the books are interconnected, with arcs crossing through multiple books. So it really shouldn't be that shocking or upsetting when everything isn't completely tied up in a neat little bow at the end of one book, especially if that book is being sold as part 1 of a 5 part series.
I'm not saying that a book should tie everything up in a neat little bow. But it would be nice if *something* got tied up before the end of the book. This book only opened threads. Would you pay to see a movie that ended after the first act?

Sci wrote: View Post
JeBuS wrote: View Post
This leads back to my previous comment on the matter. Books should be self-contained.
Says who?

Hey, listen, if it didn't work for you, it didn't work for you. But acknowledge the subjective nature of your tastes instead of making claims about the content that are false, moving the goalposts, and declaring that all books should live up to arbitrary standards of what constitutes quality. Especially for a book that is explicitly marketed as being Part One of an interconnected miniseries.
I don't think I've argued that my opinion is objective. I am, however, arguing my subjective opinion about the merits of this book. Isn't what this thread is about? I do not believe I have falsified any of my claims about this book. I'm more than willing to change my mind, and even recant any of my claims, but neither you, nor anyone else has yet made a case to convince me that I'm wrong. And the book was not explicitly marketed as being Part One of a mini-series. My copy, at least, does not have any mention of requiring another book to complete the story therein.
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Old September 10 2013, 03:28 AM   #195
Sci
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JeBuS wrote: View Post
I don't think I've argued that my opinion is objective.
"Books ought to be self-contained" is a statement of objective creative obligations. It uses imperative language that establishes requirements rather than acknowledging diverse creative tastes and goals. If you had said, "I prefer books that are self-contained," your argument would have been more fair.

I do not believe I have falsified any of my claims about this book.
You claimed there were no character arcs in this book. I cited several. You then shifted the goalposts by moving from claiming that there were no character arcs to claiming that there wasn't enough resolution.

And the book was not explicitly marketed as being Part One of a mini-series.
False. The very first blurb announcing The Fall identified Revelation and Dust as the first part of an interconnected mini-series.
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