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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old September 9 2013, 04:47 PM   #661
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

They couldn't afford to do major changes to the ship model back in 1995. If they'd done the show in the 2000s then it'd be easier to change the CGI models they'd be using then. That's how Enterprise got away with it, as well as NuBSG.

Moore is a whiner anyways. He had his own chance to do all that in nuBSG and he still blew it himself with nonsense like how they make booze out of algae and how they never ran out of Nukes or how they could make new Vipers on the ship.

He has no idea what it's like to deal with Network pressure, and when he did have network pressure on him he ran off crying like a baby.
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Old September 9 2013, 04:49 PM   #662
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Stoo wrote: View Post
I'd expect more noticeable changes over the years than scratches in the paintwork!
What if they had a seven-year supply of miraculous Ron Popeil and Billy Mays products before heading into the Badlands? A little Borg-Damage-B-Gone would seal up that hull breach.
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Old September 9 2013, 04:58 PM   #663
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
They couldn't afford to do major changes to the ship model back in 1995. If they'd done the show in the 2000s then it'd be easier to change the CGI models they'd be using then. That's how Enterprise got away with it, as well as NuBSG.

Moore is a whiner anyways. He had his own chance to do all that in nuBSG and he still blew it himself with nonsense like how they make booze out of algae and how they never ran out of Nukes or how they could make new Vipers on the ship.

He has no idea what it's like to deal with Network pressure, and when he did have network pressure on him he ran off crying like a baby.
I still absolutely LOVE BSG!!
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Old September 9 2013, 05:21 PM   #664
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Moore is a whiner anyways. He had his own chance to do all that in nuBSG and he still blew it himself with nonsense like how they make booze out of algae and how they never ran out of Nukes or how they could make new Vipers on the ship.
Huh? BSG was very convincing in its depiction of a fleet with limited supplies and no dry-dock to go for an overhaul. (and an enormous ship like a Battlestar making simple fighters isn't that hard to swallow. Skilled pilots were the more limiting factor anyway).

Also, iirc in Scorpion we saw Voyager with borg greeblies attached, and in Year of Hell it was pretty bashed up. So modifying the model clearly wasn't impossible.
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Old September 9 2013, 06:18 PM   #665
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

NuBSG had cheats that VOY didn't have:

1) They never had to restock weapons after the first episode. No one complained. Yet everyone complains over VOY having torpedoes.

2) They could make new Vipers, but folks couldn't believe VOY could make new shuttles.

3) They had a big fleet in VOY to pull new crewmembers or characters out of nowhere, yet when VOY tried to make recurring characters everyone complained they shouldn't have any.

4) NuBSG's damage was all window dressing, it never impacted the core working of the ship, it was just scars on the outer hull.

As for Voyager in "Year of Hell", they only had the money to make the changes for that story. It wasn't sustainable beyond that instance. That's why they reset it all. That and the network saying no to continuing it.

See, the premise included a bit about how they could never have any support at all. They'd NEED support to keep the ship running. So they shot themselves in the foot because if they'd sustained the damage from "Year of Hell" they'd never be able to fix it and the show would be over.
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Old September 9 2013, 06:29 PM   #666
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
NuBSG had cheats that VOY didn't have:

1) They never had to restock weapons after the first episode. No one complained. Yet everyone complains over VOY having torpedoes.

2) They could make new Vipers, but folks couldn't believe VOY could make new shuttles.

3) They had a big fleet in VOY to pull new crewmembers or characters out of nowhere, yet when VOY tried to make recurring characters everyone complained they shouldn't have any.

4) NuBSG's damage was all window dressing, it never impacted the core working of the ship, it was just scars on the outer hull.

As for Voyager in "Year of Hell", they only had the money to make the changes for that story. It wasn't sustainable beyond that instance. That's why they reset it all. That and the network saying no to continuing it.

See, the premise included a bit about how they could never have any support at all. They'd NEED support to keep the ship running. So they shot themselves in the foot because if they'd sustained the damage from "Year of Hell" they'd never be able to fix it and the show would be over.
1.>Yes but unlike VOY, nuBSG never said something along the lines of "We only have 38 photon torpedeos with no way to replace them"

2.>I seem to recall them mentioning that building the Blackbird was a major achievment and the first new fighter they had build. Pegasus was stated as having the ability to manufacture Vipers.

3.>Not sure what you mean, people gerenally complain that they didn't have enough recurring characters along the lines of Carey.

4.>A battle scared hull was better than seemingly no damage at all, and besides in the final season it was made clear that structuraly due to all the hyperspace jumps and battle inflicting damage the Galactica wasn't in great shape.
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Old September 9 2013, 06:36 PM   #667
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
NuBSG had cheats that VOY didn't have:

1) They never had to restock weapons after the first episode. No one complained. Yet everyone complains over VOY having torpedoes.

2) They could make new Vipers, but folks couldn't believe VOY could make new shuttles.

3) They had a big fleet in VOY to pull new crewmembers or characters out of nowhere, yet when VOY tried to make recurring characters everyone complained they shouldn't have any.

4) NuBSG's damage was all window dressing, it never impacted the core working of the ship, it was just scars on the outer hull.

As for Voyager in "Year of Hell", they only had the money to make the changes for that story. It wasn't sustainable beyond that instance. That's why they reset it all. That and the network saying no to continuing it.

See, the premise included a bit about how they could never have any support at all. They'd NEED support to keep the ship running. So they shot themselves in the foot because if they'd sustained the damage from "Year of Hell" they'd never be able to fix it and the show would be over.
1.>Yes but unlike VOY, nuBSG never said something along the lines of "We only have 38 photon torpedeos with no way to replace them"

2.>I seem to recall them mentioning that building the Blackbird was a major achievment and the first new fighter they had build. Pegasus was stated as having the ability to manufacture Vipers.

3.>Not sure what you mean, people gerenally complain that they didn't have enough recurring characters along the lines of Carey.

4.>A battle scared hull was better than seemingly no damage at all, and besides in the final season it was made clear that structuraly due to all the hyperspace jumps and battle inflicting damage the Galactica wasn't in great shape.
does it need to be flat out said that they had a limited supply of ammo? In the mini series they restocked, but after that when did they restock? it's valid reasoning that there is a finite number of ammo both for the ship and for sidearms

and they never mentioned ay structural issues with the galactica until a few episodes before the end
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Old September 9 2013, 06:42 PM   #668
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
NuBSG had cheats that VOY didn't have:

1) They never had to restock weapons after the first episode. No one complained. Yet everyone complains over VOY having torpedoes.

2) They could make new Vipers, but folks couldn't believe VOY could make new shuttles.

3) They had a big fleet in VOY to pull new crewmembers or characters out of nowhere, yet when VOY tried to make recurring characters everyone complained they shouldn't have any.

4) NuBSG's damage was all window dressing, it never impacted the core working of the ship, it was just scars on the outer hull.

As for Voyager in "Year of Hell", they only had the money to make the changes for that story. It wasn't sustainable beyond that instance. That's why they reset it all. That and the network saying no to continuing it.

See, the premise included a bit about how they could never have any support at all. They'd NEED support to keep the ship running. So they shot themselves in the foot because if they'd sustained the damage from "Year of Hell" they'd never be able to fix it and the show would be over.
1.>Yes but unlike VOY, nuBSG never said something along the lines of "We only have 38 photon torpedeos with no way to replace them"

2.>I seem to recall them mentioning that building the Blackbird was a major achievment and the first new fighter they had build. Pegasus was stated as having the ability to manufacture Vipers.

3.>Not sure what you mean, people gerenally complain that they didn't have enough recurring characters along the lines of Carey.

4.>A battle scared hull was better than seemingly no damage at all, and besides in the final season it was made clear that structuraly due to all the hyperspace jumps and battle inflicting damage the Galactica wasn't in great shape.
If I am not mistaken, the process of supplying and repairing Galactica was a constant plot point--it was certainly not avoided. Some of the concerns are easy to address: only one Blackbird was ever built, out of spare parts, no less; a new supply of Vipers was found, but at no small cost--conflict with the crew of Pegasus; nukes were never extensively used by Galactica, whose primary battle role was to provide cover for the retreating fleet. Finding food, water and living space carried over into several episodes, grinding the fleet to a halt and exposing it to attack. Every attempt to repair and resupply the ship was a trade-off.

Of course, that doesn't mean Ronald Moore is above criticism. At times he's the king of no-splainin' (where was Kara?). However, this was a matter that was addressed extensively, allowing us to criticize its believability. Voyager usually left us in the dark about this.
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Old September 9 2013, 06:48 PM   #669
Stoo
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Yeah the structural damage to Galactica became a major plot point in the last season.

Also worth remembering, as a carrier it was only semi-functional from the very start, ie only one landing bay was operating.

Anwar wrote: View Post
See, the premise included a bit about how they could never have any support at all. They'd NEED support to keep the ship running. So they shot themselves in the foot because if they'd sustained the damage from "Year of Hell" they'd never be able to fix it and the show would be over.
I don't know if this is meant to be arguing with me or what?. I'm only discussing how I would do a show like this differently, and I've never said that a lack of federation support means never getting any repair work done.
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Old September 9 2013, 07:19 PM   #670
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

I'm saying that the premise as is said "No Support". That doesn't mean "No Federation Support", it means "No Support from anyone. No allying with aliens. No stopping at alien stations for repair work."

Absolutely no help from anyone, ever.

And Galactica's damage was only a plot point in the very last episodes.
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Old September 9 2013, 07:21 PM   #671
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Why is a ship the size of Voyager even being compared with the behemoth of the Galactica?
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Old September 9 2013, 07:25 PM   #672
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

It's kinda funny how often the word "everyone" is being used to argue all sides of the debate here.
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Old September 9 2013, 07:31 PM   #673
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

And it's turning into a NuBSG thread, while I'm only familiar with the Ben Cartwright version.
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Old September 10 2013, 04:38 AM   #674
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Melakon wrote: View Post
Why is a ship the size of Voyager even being compared with the behemoth of the Galactica?
So if VOY was some big Battleship, you wouldn't mind the comparison.
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Old September 10 2013, 07:26 AM   #675
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

I don't see what BSG has to do with Voyager other than they're both spaceships in different universes.
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