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Old August 14 2013, 07:02 PM   #751
Timo
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

I currently discount the possibility of aft tubes because they would've been used in "The Changeling".
...Because the target is at "123 mark 18", past the 90-degree mark?

But that is before Kirk tells Sulu "That's our target". Sulu could well have pointed the ship towards said target there and then, especially when subsequently hearing that Kirk wants torpedoes used - why not point six or more bow tubes at the baddie, rather than just two stern ones? It is only after that, with the third attack, that Scotty specifically says that the ship has lost "warp maneuvering power", and even that shouldn't have to mean that Sulu would be unable to point before shooting.

Kirk only defines "torpedo two" later in the game, potentially after Sulu has finished turning. This could thus easily be the same "torpedo two" that Kirk specified as part of his forward spread in "Journey to Babel".

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Old August 14 2013, 11:18 PM   #752
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

For me the problem is that Kirk never gives any order to bring the ship around. Spock's last "location" is a bearing. That "location" was "holding steady" which would indicate the bearing never changed when the Enterprise fired the torpedo. I'm not saying it's impossible for the Enterprise to turn, just that there isn't enough information to confirm that she did turn (like an order, a visual fx, new bearing).
SPOCK: Unknown, Captain. Nothing within sensor range. Something now, Captain. Very small. Bearing one two three degrees, mark one eight. Range ninety thousand kilometers.
KIRK: That's our target, Mister Sulu. Prepare photon torpedo.
SCOTT: Shields still holding, sir, but the drain on the engines is reaching the critical point. Ach, we lost warp maneuvering power. Switching to impulse.
SULU: Photon torpedoes armed, sir.
KIRK: Has the target changed location, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: No, sir. Holding steady.
KIRK: Ready photon torpedo number two, Mister Sulu.
SULU: Ready, sir.
KIRK: Fire.

Last edited by blssdwlf; August 14 2013 at 11:43 PM.
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Old August 15 2013, 10:12 PM   #753
Timo
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Yet "location" and "the way it is given" would be fundamentally separate things, and we never learn the bearing would not have changed (into zero zero zero mark zero, say)...

I just don't see the tactical purpose of not turning; Kirk isn't about to take his enemy by surprise or anything, and isn't biding his time with the torpedo shot, but takes it as soon as Sulu gets a weapon ready for him.

And Scotty is worried about maneuverability, despite being present on the bridge for a change, and aware of the tactical decisions being made and their main viewer -evidenced consequences.

I thus also wonder whether the "drain on the engines" really is from the shields, or rather from frantic attempts at maintaining the high-warp evasive maneuvering that Kirk already explicitly ordered... Tellingly, the loss of "warp maneuvering power" does not result in the shields getting markedly weaker, or NOMAD's third hit would have vaporized the starship already. So it does sound likely that Sulu is still trying to obey Kirk's order to maneuver (first defensively, then perhaps offensively), with less and less success but with impulse maneuverability still explicitly available to him.

On a more general note, we probably have to figure out the logic of only using tubes 2, 4 and 6 for the "Journey to Babel" volley and the choice of #2 here if we want to establish the total number of tubes in the most sensible way. Personally, I feel a balance of six forward and possibly two aft tubes is very nice and jibes with ENT "precedent", but Kirk's preference for even tubes over odd ones might suggest that the forward six are grouped in a specific manner.

Yeah, only firing half the tubes first is a time-honored practice, and Sisko does it in DS9 still despite reload times being extremely short (in the 24th century at least). But that doesn't explain why #2 would be better than #1 in this ep (or why Kirk would pick the evens before the odds in "Journey to Babel", when intuitively the opposite would be the human thing to do). Perhaps we should speculate that the three odd ones are on the dorsal surface of the saucer, and thus cannot be fired at the exact same angles as the three even ones? (Or that the odd ones are actually aft tubes? But it would be weird to start the numbering from an aft tube, IMHO.)

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Old August 16 2013, 01:02 AM   #754
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Timo wrote: View Post
Yet "location" and "the way it is given" would be fundamentally separate things, and we never learn the bearing would not have changed (into zero zero zero mark zero, say)...
Actually we kinda do. Kirk tells Sulu the target is Spock's contact after we get Spock's bearing and distance. When Kirk asks later if the target has changed location, Spock confirms it has not. Since Spock's "location" is based on a bearing and distance from the ship and Sulu was told to target the object (giving him time to turn the ship) prior to the location confirmation that indicated no change then the only thing we can conclude is that the target was still on the same bearing and distance at the time of firing.

If Spock had said something else like, "now bearing directly ahead" or Kirk said "bring forward tube to bear" then I'd easily agree that the ship turned to bring the forward tube to bear.

Then we also have "Elaan of Troyius" where Kirk orders "to bring all tubes to bear." If he really meant ALL tubes to bear then that meant there were only the six forward tubes as that was what was fired. We never saw any stern tubes used right after the forward ones were fired.

Timo wrote: View Post
I just don't see the tactical purpose of not turning; Kirk isn't about to take his enemy by surprise or anything, and isn't biding his time with the torpedo shot, but takes it as soon as Sulu gets a weapon ready for him.
That's an interesting question. If he had stern tubes, then there would be no tactical purpose to turn anyway. If he had only forward tubes and the torpedo could easily turn and hit a target behind him at 90,000km, again, no reason to turn. It's not like there was one side of the shields that would better protect them.

Timo wrote: View Post
And Scotty is worried about maneuverability, despite being present on the bridge for a change, and aware of the tactical decisions being made and their main viewer -evidenced consequences.
Scott's more worried about keeping the shields at Full Power as ordered by Kirk.
KIRK: Full power to the shields, Mister Scott.
SCOTT: Giving them all we got.
...
SCOTT: I'm having to divert the warp engine power into the shields, sir, if you want the protection.
KIRK: Mister Spock, speed of those bolts.
SPOCK: Approximately warp fifteen, Captain.
KIRK: Then we can't out run them. Good, Scotty. You're doing the right thing.
Timo wrote: View Post
I thus also wonder whether the "drain on the engines" really is from the shields,
The drain is clearly from keeping the shields at Full Power and not from the maneuvering. At the end, they were maneuvering on impulse power, but this goes to a bit about Nomad and the Enterprise. If Sulu pivots the ship at Impulse to aim, Nomad with it's potentially higher speed could probably still hold the same bearing.

Timo wrote: View Post
On a more general note, we probably have to figure out the logic of only using tubes 2, 4 and 6 for the "Journey to Babel" volley and the choice of #2 here if we want to establish the total number of tubes in the most sensible way. Personally, I feel a balance of six forward and possibly two aft tubes is very nice and jibes with ENT "precedent", but Kirk's preference for even tubes over odd ones might suggest that the forward six are grouped in a specific manner.
In "Elaan of Troyius" they fired all six. Two rapidly from three positions. I would theorize that on the ventral saucer area there are 3 sets of 2 tubes. 1/2 could be forward, 3/4 on one side and the 5/6 on the other.

That's not to say all Enterprise-type ships didn't have aft tubes. We just know the Enterprise didn't. Curiously, the TMP and -A versions don't appear to have them either.
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Old August 16 2013, 01:42 AM   #755
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Didn't Kirk order evasive maneuvers first? Did he specify what maneuvers? No because he trusted Sulu to execute the implicit parts of that command correctly. Same with the torpedo order. No need to tell Sulu that the target has to be in the weapon's firing arc; it is implicitly understood. The sign of a well-trained crew.
IMO anyway.
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Old August 16 2013, 02:03 AM   #756
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@BK613 - Like I said to Timo, if Spock had not confirmed the location after Sulu was told to target Nomad then I'd agree that the ship was turned to bring her forward tubes to bear. (And yep, Sulu was ordered to take "evasive maneuvers".)

But, the order of operation was:

1. Enterprise maintaining Evasive Maneuvers
2. Location established by bearing and distance. If the Enterprise is still turning and dodging and the bearing and distance doesn't change it indicates Nomad is deliberately staying at that bearing and distance from the Enterprise irregardless of what Sulu is doing.
3. Sulu ordered to target Nomad. He's got plenty of time to turn the ship before the next order.
4. Spock confirms that the target location (bearing and distance) is holding steady (no change).
5. Kirk orders fire on target.

So...

1. If Sulu was continuously maneuvering and Nomad was holding same bearing and distance, then there was no way they could've turned to hit it.
2. If Sulu could've turned and Spock confirmed a new bearing then it would indicate a turn to bring forward tubes to bear but that wasn't the case as nothing had changed between them and the target.

And a separate episode, "Elaan of Troyius" showed us that "all tubes" only as forward facing tubes.

Under other conditions, I'd love to add a stern tube but I just don't see it based on the parameters that we're given from the episodes, IMHO. (And it doesn't help that the later movie Enterprise clearly is lacking stern tubes in it's design.)
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Old August 16 2013, 02:51 AM   #757
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post

1. If Sulu was continuously maneuvering and Nomad was holding same bearing and distance, then there was no way they could've turned to hit it.
2. If Sulu could've turned and Spock confirmed a new bearing then it would indicate a turn to bring forward tubes to bear but that wasn't the case as nothing had changed between them and the target.
Or
3. Since Kirk asked if the location of the target had changed (and not the bearing to the target)--which Spock confirmed (IOW, Nomad is not moving but "holding steady")--Sulu maneuvered the ship to fire on that location...
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Old August 16 2013, 03:39 AM   #758
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Yeah, I thought that the location was just a fixed point in space a long time ago.

But later when I was thinking on how to chart the battle out, the only conclusion I can draw from the "location of the target" was that it was still the same description as it was given by Spock, which was bearing and distance. Otherwise, Kirk would have no idea on actual distance or bearing to the target (location) since they went from warp to impulse while still evading before Kirk requested a confirmation.
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Old August 17 2013, 10:48 PM   #759
Timo
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

But that's still fudging two fundamentally different things, "bearing" and "location", in a manner nobody would do in reality. If Spock says that the location has not changed, then it automatically follows that the bearing has changed.

Kirk does not need to have any idea of the bearing or the distance, because he has told Sulu to keep track of those.

Is it plausible that NOMAD really remains immobile throughout the battle? That is, from the moment Spock gives the bearing to the moment Sulu fires his torpedo? Certainly, because NOMAD's bolts travel at very high warp and could easily pound Kirk from warp to immobility before Kirk left either the range of NOMAD's weapons, or the range of his own photon torpedoes.

And a separate episode, "Elaan of Troyius" showed us that "all tubes" only as forward facing tubes.
But if torps can't fire over the shoulder, then "all tubes" would implicitly only mean "all applicable tubes".

Really, the ship has to be stripped of aft phasers as well if we're to believe that the command "All phasers fire!" in "Balance of Terror" did not involve the ship spinning around while firing...

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Old August 18 2013, 08:13 AM   #760
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Timo wrote: View Post
But that's still fudging two fundamentally different things, "bearing" and "location", in a manner nobody would do in reality. If Spock says that the location has not changed, then it automatically follows that the bearing has changed.
Not exactly. "Location" is defined as a "position or site or particular place". Defining the target's location as a "bearing and distance" relative to the Enterprise would fall under "position" and can be plotted as a "location relative to the Enterprise".

So when Spock answers that the target is "holding steady" from Kirk's question "has the target changed location?" could still be based on the original bearing and distance location given earlier. Since Spock and Sulu do not give additional position/location information to Kirk then he only has Spock's original reference to go with.

Now if Spock had rattled off some absolute star coordinates or affirmed Kirk's question with now bearing directly ahead or something else, then yes, I'd be inclined to agree with you.

Timo wrote: View Post
Kirk does not need to have any idea of the bearing or the distance, because he has told Sulu to keep track of those.
Then why does he need to ask?

Timo wrote: View Post
Is it plausible that NOMAD really remains immobile throughout the battle? That is, from the moment Spock gives the bearing to the moment Sulu fires his torpedo? Certainly, because NOMAD's bolts travel at very high warp and could easily pound Kirk from warp to immobility before Kirk left either the range of NOMAD's weapons, or the range of his own photon torpedoes.
It's possible. I'd have to re-watch it to see how that gels with the whole battle.

Timo wrote: View Post
And a separate episode, "Elaan of Troyius" showed us that "all tubes" only as forward facing tubes.
But if torps can't fire over the shoulder, then "all tubes" would implicitly only mean "all applicable tubes".
OTOH, if they could fire over the shoulder, then aft tubes should have been also used as the order was for "all tubes to bear".
OR if they could not fire over the shoulder they could've just gone to warp and got in front of the Klingon to fire her aft tubes at minimum range without turning and let the Klingon run into them and then pivoted to fire her remaining forward tubes.

Timo wrote: View Post
Really, the ship has to be stripped of aft phasers as well if we're to believe that the command "All phasers fire!" in "Balance of Terror" did not involve the ship spinning around while firing...
This as you know goes to the multiple phaser banks being able to fire through a single or pair of emitters as seen in "The Paradise Syndrome" and "FTWIHAIHTTS" so of course we didn't need to see the ship spinning around to fire all phasers
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Old September 8 2013, 07:27 PM   #761
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

My God, blssdwlf. I just read through this whole thread (okay, I skimmed a bit) but holy crap, your work is just fantastic. I hope you're continuing with it.
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Old September 9 2013, 12:38 AM   #762
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@Praetor - thanks. Yes on and off. Depends on what's going on at work and home
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Old September 9 2013, 04:53 PM   #763
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

I know just what you mean.

I'm immediately interested in any TOS Enterprise attempt, but particluarly any that take a radical stance on it. Further, I commend your attempt at fleshing her out in three dimensions.
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Old September 10 2013, 04:54 AM   #764
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

I enjoy it immensely.

But I'm not the only one working on the Enterprise.

Havoc92 did a detailed job using FJ's blueprints as a base. Donny also is doing some amazing work using the unreal 3d engine.

I also remember another member (name escaping me, argh!) doing a sweet Minecraft version of the movie Enterprise (my son's pretty heavy into it now too.)

I think Mytran, Albertese and Robert Comsol are doing 2D blueprints but only Robert has an active thread here.

I'll post more WIPs as time permits
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Old September 11 2013, 04:38 AM   #765
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
...

I think Mytran, Albertese and Robert Comsol are doing 2D blueprints but only Robert has an active thread here.

...

I'm working on my deck plans on and off. I decided on not starting a thread about it, as I'm taking a weird approach on things and it'll only cause arguments. I'll probably post it all at some point and let the comments and criticisms land were they may.

Anyhow, blssdwlf, I too am eagerly awaiting more progress on your project here...

--Alex
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