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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old September 2 2013, 10:11 PM   #76
Warped9
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

As with a lot of sci-fi some things don't bear close scrutiny. It's never really explained what exactly has been going on in that sector of space to have caused the loss of "thousands of lives" over the years. And if you have advanced interstellar travel and other related science and technology why does it have to be that particular system to have a treaty port? Is it because it's the only Class M planet in the sector? That's possible particularly given that now it seems Earth like planets seem relatively rare. Setting up base on an already hospitable planet is a lot easier than fabricating a massive space station/habitat or setting up on a world where you need to build facilities to protect you from the environment. Maybe it has little to do with having a port and facilities at all but with having a political ally there so you can claim it as being under your sphere of influence.

But in the episode none of this is remotely explained or referenced.
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Old September 2 2013, 10:30 PM   #77
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

True that. But it isn't in any way outside the general Trek parameters that a fairly low traffic load would already put thousands at risk: individual transports supposedly carry that many people already. And "Errand of Mercy" consistently suggests that the ownership of a Class M rock is strategically significant, completely regardless of what sort of industry, culture or lichen may be growing on that rock.

"Armageddon" doesn't stand out in this respect, then - nor in the respect of giving very thin exposition at the beginning and then never really returning to it. Which IMHO makes speculation all the more fun, as the cues and limitations really come from elsewhere in Trek: the works of unrelated, often disagreeing authors must be rather brutally meshed together and then molded to all-new shapes to provide the answers.

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Old September 3 2013, 08:53 AM   #78
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Timo wrote: View Post
Probably not, though. If you walk on somebody's lawn, saying "I never signed those STAY OFF THE GRASS signs and never paid for the barbed wire, either", and that somebody punches you, it's you who will get jailed for punching back and hospitalizing the somebody. It's no more self-defense than a bank robber firing at the armed guard who shouts "Freeze!".
If the nutjob next door tells you "I will kill anyone who treads on my grass" and your two teenage sons ride their bikes on his grass just to irritate him, has he the right to kill them? I mean after all he's warned them and you.
Look Balok and the Gorns just fired on the Enterprise and Federation outposts without discussing it with anyone. McCoy may have come to think the Federation was in the "wrong" but I still think the Gorns were. They didn't give the people on the outpost a chance. Sure it may be Gorn space, it may be free space, if in doubt don't kill people use Fox and his like to negotiate treaties. Fox may be a pompass ass but his intentions are honourable.
In the end the Federation may have accepted that they weren't reall wanted near Eminiar or Vendikar but for all we know the Vendikarians were keen to speak to the Federation
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Old September 3 2013, 09:16 AM   #79
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Kirk does the same thing in "Spectre of the Gun". The Melkotian warning buoy says this is our place, leave now, we're not going to tell you again. But Kirk has orders to establish contact and heads further in.
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Old September 3 2013, 11:57 AM   #80
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

If the nutjob next door tells you "I will kill anyone who treads on my grass" and your two teenage sons ride their bikes on his grass just to irritate him, has he the right to kill them? I mean after all he's warned them and you.
Certain courts have famously judged "yes" to the above. OTOH, I'm not aware of any court judging in favor of an armed intruder who uses his weapons in "self-defense" against the property holder.

Look Balok and the Gorns just fired on the Enterprise and Federation outposts without discussing it with anyone.
...That is, they shot at trespassers. The Eminians took steps to ensure they didn't; and even the Vendikans apparently didn't target the Enterprise specifically - she just got in the way. So they were a bit more civilized than Balok and the Gorn in this respect, from a certain point of view. But if shooting at trespassers is the universal standard, then heavily armed and aggressive trespassing will soon become standard as well, and for Starfleet this appears to already have happened...

In the end the Federation may have accepted that they weren't reall wanted near Eminiar or Vendikar but for all we know the Vendikarians were keen to speak to the Federation
OTOH, it was the Vendikans who killed the starship! Fully knowing that the fake kill would result in the very real deaths of the crew or an interstellar incident probably amounting to annihilation, one would surmise. So did they do it on purpose after all? If there was intent behind it, then this sort of disproves any intent to open a dialogue and deal peacefully with the UFP, I guess.

Kirk does the same thing in "Spectre of the Gun". The Melkotian warning buoy says this is our place, leave now, we're not going to tell you again. But Kirk has orders to establish contact and heads further in.
Perhaps it's significant that in both "Armageddon" and "Spectre", the culture the Feds want to forcibly approach is not a first contact situation by a long shot - it's a case of the culture having long resisted any approaches, and the Feds having decided they want to change the state of affairs. There's no room there for Kirk's own snap judgements in whether to approach or not, and nothing surprising about the obstacles to approach.

In contrast, "Corbomite" suggests there are standing orders there to defy such obstacles: Kirk doesn't know there's a First Federation there, isn't aware of do-not-approach signs in advance, and still presses on when encountering those.

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Old September 6 2013, 02:26 AM   #81
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

It's debatable whether the order would have been carried out had Kirk's demands not been met. However, would a single Constitution-class ship really have the means to carry out such an order?

I haven't seen anything that suggests the Enterprise has that kind of firepower. There is a similar concept in the Star Wars universe called Base Delta Zero, but completely melting a planet's surface wouldn't be necessary to wipe out all life.
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Old September 6 2013, 02:52 AM   #82
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

ixfd64 wrote: View Post
It's debatable whether the order would have been carried out had Kirk's demands not been met. However, would a single Constitution-class ship really have the means to carry out such an order?

I haven't seen anything that suggests the Enterprise has that kind of firepower. There is a similar concept in the Star Wars universe called Base Delta Zero, but completely melting a planet's surface wouldn't be necessary to wipe out all life.
They don't say anything melting the planet surface only that they had programmed all cities and military installations into their fire control computer.

The capability is also mentioned in Bread and Circuses:

Bread and Circuses wrote:
CLAUDIUS: But on the other hand, why even bother to send your men down? From what I understand, your vessel could lay waste to the entire surface of the world
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Old September 7 2013, 06:31 PM   #83
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Depend on what it takes to be considered as "destroyed." Destroying all power production, water pipelines, transportation inferstructure (especially bridges), waste treatment, means of communication, etc., you would have basically destroyed Eminor Seven.

You wouldn't have to actually glass the entire surface.

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Old September 8 2013, 02:49 AM   #84
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Captain, I believe the appropriate colloquialism is "bomb it into the stone age".
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Old September 8 2013, 03:05 AM   #85
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

ixfd64 wrote: View Post
It's debatable whether the order would have been carried out had Kirk's demands not been met. However, would a single Constitution-class ship really have the means to carry out such an order?
Well, they could use a string of 210 satellites around the planet with burning tri-magnesite and trevium. The satellites could generate infrared light or microwaves of such intensity that they could cook everyone on the planet.
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Old September 8 2013, 03:12 AM   #86
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Depend on what it takes to be considered as "destroyed." Destroying all power production, water pipelines, transportation inferstructure (especially bridges), waste treatment, means of communication, etc., you would have basically destroyed Eminor Seven.

You wouldn't have to actually glass the entire surface.

Doesn't Scott say "all habitable areas"? That could possibly mean not just infrastructure, but vegetation as well.
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Old September 8 2013, 08:30 PM   #87
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Melakon wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Depend on what it takes to be considered as "destroyed." Destroying all power production, water pipelines, transportation inferstructure (especially bridges), waste treatment, means of communication, etc., you would have basically destroyed Eminor Seven.

You wouldn't have to actually glass the entire surface.

Doesn't Scott say "all habitable areas"? That could possibly mean not just infrastructure, but vegetation as well.
Scotty mentioned that all cities and installations on Eminiar Seven had been targeted, and that the entire inhabited surface of the planet would be destroyed.

As previously mentioned, destroying utilities and infrastructure, as well as cities where government leadership and economic power was centered would probably be sufficient to set an advanced civilization back decades, or even hundreds of years, without having to destroy everything, everywhere.
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Old September 8 2013, 09:22 PM   #88
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

I would imagine a bunch of photon torpedos would devaste the planet; one ounce of antimatter blew out half the atmosphere on the planet the cloud critter was from in Obsession.
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Old September 8 2013, 10:03 PM   #89
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Break out the bowling ball bomb. It's the only way to be sure.
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Old September 9 2013, 12:45 AM   #90
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Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?

Rulius wrote: View Post
I would imagine a bunch of photon torpedos would devaste the planet; one ounce of antimatter blew out half the atmosphere on the planet the cloud critter was from in Obsession.
It did indeed. Powerful stuff that antimatter.
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