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Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

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Old September 8 2013, 04:12 PM   #406
JarodRussell
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
By that standard, STiD didn't feel like a retelling of WoK to me.
The question is, would you have pitched a story like that and felt good about it?

STiD is the most unoriginal piece of work I have heard of in recent times.
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Old September 8 2013, 04:15 PM   #407
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
By that standard, STiD didn't feel like a retelling of WoK to me.
The question is, would you have pitched a story like that and felt good about it?

STiD is the most unoriginal piece of work I have heard of in recent times.
You're talking to somebody who managed to get three books out of Khan. I ain't throwing stones.

And I was mostly just addressing the "is it a remake?" issue.

Honestly, TMP strikes me as more a remake of "The Changeling" than the new movie is a remake of Khan.
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Old September 8 2013, 04:16 PM   #408
JarodRussell
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
By that standard, STiD didn't feel like a retelling of WoK to me.
The question is, would you have pitched a story like that and felt good about it?

STiD is the most unoriginal piece of work I have heard of in recent times.
You're talking to somebody who managed to get three books out of Khan. I ain't throwing stones.
Yeah, but you didn't resort to simply re-telling or re-arranging something. You told proper prequel stories.
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Old September 8 2013, 04:26 PM   #409
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

The question is, would you have pitched a story like that and felt good about it?

STiD is the most unoriginal piece of work I have heard of in recent times.
You're talking to somebody who managed to get three books out of Khan. I ain't throwing stones.
Yeah, but you didn't resort to simply re-telling or re-arranging something. You told proper prequel stories.
But we're all toiling over very well-trodden paths at this point. Speaking from experience, it's pretty much impossible to come up with a plot or scene that doesn't bear some resemblance to one of the many, many, many Trek movies, episodes, books, or comics. And that's not even counting the fanfic!

Heck, I've been accused of writing "continuity porn" more than once--and not without reason! I've brought back the Hortas, Gary Seven, Q, Redjac, "God," the Pakleds, and the Great Bird knows who else.

And just wait until you see my next book . . . which revisits several familiar worlds and species and time periods.
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Old September 8 2013, 04:28 PM   #410
JarodRussell
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post

You're talking to somebody who managed to get three books out of Khan. I ain't throwing stones.
Yeah, but you didn't resort to simply re-telling or re-arranging something. You told proper prequel stories.
But we're all toiling over very well-trodden paths at this point. Speaking from experience, it's pretty much impossible to come up with a plot or scene that doesn't bear some resemblance to one of the many, many, many Trek movies, episodes, books, or comics. And that's not even counting the fanfic!

Heck, I've been accused of writing "continuity porn" more than once--and not without reason! I've brought back the Hortas, Gary Seven, Q, Redjac, "God," the Pakleds, and the Great Bird knows who else.

And just wait until you see my next book . . . which revisits several familiar worlds and species and time periods.
But is that really the same as rehashing the Space Seed plot as the basis for your plot*, and then rehashing the TWOK climax as the climax of your own work?

*the plot of STiD is a combination of Space Seed and Star Trek 2009, that's all it is.
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Old September 8 2013, 04:38 PM   #411
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

Yeah, but you didn't resort to simply re-telling or re-arranging something. You told proper prequel stories.
But we're all toiling over very well-trodden paths at this point. Speaking from experience, it's pretty much impossible to come up with a plot or scene that doesn't bear some resemblance to one of the many, many, many Trek movies, episodes, books, or comics. And that's not even counting the fanfic!

Heck, I've been accused of writing "continuity porn" more than once--and not without reason! I've brought back the Hortas, Gary Seven, Q, Redjac, "God," the Pakleds, and the Great Bird knows who else.

And just wait until you see my next book . . . which revisits several familiar worlds and species and time periods.
But is that really the same as rehashing the Space Seed plot as the basis for your plot, and then rehashing the TWOK climax as the climax of your own work?
But I see very little of "Space Seed" in the new movie. Where's the part where Kirk found the Botany Bay floating in space, where Khan seduced Marla McIvers, where Khan revived his followers and seized control of the Enterprise, where Kirk deposited Khan and Co. on Ceti Alpha V?

Similarly, where in "Space Seed" was the Section 31 conspiracy to start a war with the Klingon Empire, the terrorist attacks on Starfleet, the assassination of Christopher Pike, the introduction of Carol Marcus, a visit to the Klingon homeworld, a top-secret Starfleet warship, relationship problems between Spock and Uhura, a falling-out between Kirk and Scotty, Kirk being temporarily stripped of his command and manipulated (briefly) by a ruthless Starfleet admiral, or the Enterprise crashing into San Francisco?

Seems to me the only thing that the new movie has in common with "Space Seed" is a bit of backstory involving Khan--whose story plays out very differently this time around.

Again, I don't recall Khan being recruited by Section 31 and then going rogue in "Space Seed." Or The Wrath of Khan.

One more thing: Both TMP and TVH involve an all-powerful, incredibly dangerous alien probe en route to Earth, but I don''t think anyone would argue that the TVH just recycled the plot of the first movie. They use the same gimmick as a starting point, but then go in completely different directions. Which is what you do.
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Old September 8 2013, 04:57 PM   #412
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Ya know, it's this big production made by Paramount. Take it for what it is.
(The only reason I started to watch the reboot was the connection to Hot Fuzz, which is one of my all-time favorites. Then, I warmed up to their main merit, which I personally believe is the artwork that went into it. I believe the artists alone comprised the majority of the credits, at least for Into Darkness.)
To summarize it very, very crudely, the bottom dollar has been more or less defining the trajectory of everything since the industrial revolution (regardless of whether a lot of attempts to get rich are experimental and/or wild goose chases). THEREFORE, if trying to figure out the logic behind reviving shows gets really frustrating, it might be more helpful to think about them as a monetary investment, and go from there.
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Old September 8 2013, 05:04 PM   #413
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

In general, I think we may be confusing "plot device" with "plot." Again, "Moriarity" is a plot device. The Hound of the Baskervilles is a plot.

Along the same lines, "superhuman villain from the past" is a plot element. It's not a story.

I got three new stories out of Khan. The new movie invented another one, involving Section 31, the Klingons, terrorism, conspiracies, etc. It's not like they just recycled the script and "rearranged" the scenes from "Space Seed."

(Does the movie borrow a single scene from "Space Seed"? I can't think of one.)

And the new comic books will presumably find something else to do with the character.
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Old September 9 2013, 03:16 AM   #414
Nerys Myk
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
In general, I think we may be confusing "plot device" with "plot." Again, "Moriarity" is a plot device. The Hound of the Baskervilles is a plot.

Along the same lines, "superhuman villain from the past" is a plot element. It's not a story.

I got three new stories out of Khan. The new movie invented another one, involving Section 31, the Klingons, terrorism, conspiracies, etc. It's not like they just recycled the script and "rearranged" the scenes from "Space Seed."

(Does the movie borrow a single scene from "Space Seed"? I can't think of one.)

And the new comic books will presumably find something else to do with the character.
I think you've hit it on the head Greg. Folk want to find something to knock the film about so they'll twist anything they can find into detriment. The film isn't perfect, but not for many of the reasons that keep coming up.
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Old September 9 2013, 10:12 AM   #415
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Yeah, but you didn't resort to simply re-telling or re-arranging something. You told proper prequel stories.
We've been through this before. So far nobody has been able to explain how STID rehashed anything.
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Old September 9 2013, 03:38 PM   #416
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Belz... wrote: View Post
We've been through this before. So far nobody has been able to explain how STID rehashed anything.
You've already admitted one similarity, don't act like it has none.
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Still, aside from individual characters, minor plot points and a single scene from the movie, I don't see how one could argue that Into Darkness or the 2009 movie lifted much from any previous installment.
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Old September 9 2013, 03:44 PM   #417
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
You've already admitted one similarity, don't act like it has none.
By that standard, every installment of Star Trek after The Cage is a rehash to one degree or another.
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Old September 9 2013, 05:03 PM   #418
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

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bbjeg wrote: View Post
You've already admitted one similarity, don't act like it has none.
By that standard, every installment of Star Trek after The Cage is a rehash to one degree or another.
If it's in the same continuity, it's one thing, but for a movie claiming to be an alternate reality, it's another.
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Old September 9 2013, 05:50 PM   #419
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
If it's in the same continuity, it's one thing, but for a movie claiming to be an alternate reality, it's another.
No, it really isn't.

They're both fiction and both are going to use elements of what came before to one degree or another.
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Old September 9 2013, 07:17 PM   #420
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Then what's the point of going out of your way to make an alternate universe if it's just going to use the same elements again?
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