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Old August 31 2013, 09:32 PM   #121
Nerys Myk
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

T'Girl wrote: View Post
.

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
The Eugenics war was supposed to be a global nuclear conflict (1992 through 1996) that killed over 30 million. But that still wasn't WW III.
Agree, the eugenics war and the third world war are completely seperate events.

I've always assumed that the eugenics war would have been concentrated in the parts of the world where the "supermen" gained power, and not involving America. We actually don't get involved in every war.
I don't recall it being said the Eugenics Wars (plural) went nuclear. Since they do use the plural, its possible that there were several wars going on against the Augments worldwide. The one that took down Khan was the last one to end.
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Old September 2 2013, 05:03 AM   #122
Nightdiamond
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Push The Button wrote: View Post
Sooner or later it becomes an unmanageable mess.
That's likely taking it too far, while there are occasional contradictions, with a little thought the majority of Star Trek makes sense.
The Eugenics/WW III concept becomes a mess in itself when you pay close attention to it. Even when you don't pay close attention you can catch the problems.

A lot of it is due to ret-conning every time a new twist is put on the subject.

Spock says the last of earth's world wars occurred in the mid 90's.

Ds9 says the Eugenics wars happened in the 22nd century. TNG says WWIII happened around 2053.

Yet Colonel Green led a genocidal war in the early 21st century.

Part of the problem as pushthebuton mentioned is adding too many ideas to the idea until it starts contradicting each other.

I've always assumed that the eugenics war would have been concentrated in the parts of the world where the "supermen" gained power, and not involving America. We actually don't get involved in every war.

From 1998 through 2003 there was a major multi-country war in Africa that killed five and a half million people, most Americans never even heard of it. Easy to believe that there could be a major war ongoing elsewhere in the world and it wouldn't directly impact the average citizen in Los Angeles.
I agree, it could have been just centered around that area.

But when Voyager went back in time to 1996 and orbited earth, the Eugenics Wars (or it's aftermath) would would have been one of the first things they would have picked up.

Once on the surface, no one seems concerned that the other half of the world is bombing itself out of existence--life seems pretty quiet and normal.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I don't recall it being said the Eugenics Wars (plural) went nuclear. Since they do use the plural, its possible that there were several wars going on against the Augments worldwide. The one that took down Khan was the last one to end.
With the post atomic horror along, with the colonel green wanting to euthanize civilians for radiation poisoning, it suggests the war was nuclear.

Spock said in the 90's earth was on the verge of the dark ages.

But that depends if you count the Eugenics war and WW III as the same thing, which TOS pretty much said outright.


The point is, in a funny way, Trek is like fundamental religion in the way it piles on the horror and destruction for humanity before the 'salvation' comes.

The Eugenics Wars, Sanctuary Districts, Earthquakes, World War III, Colonel Green, genetically engineered superman Singh, The Post Atomic Horror-- super overkill.

I think the original idea was that there was a world wide war that nearly wiped out humanity and civilization and it scared them enough to began working together and change for the better.

It was simple and effective enough, but it got inflated later with each new story added to it.
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Old September 2 2013, 05:48 AM   #123
Nerys Myk
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Nightdiamond wrote:
Nerys Myk wrote:
I don't recall it being said the Eugenics Wars (plural) went nuclear. Since they do use the plural, its possible that there were several wars going on against the Augments worldwide. The one that took down Khan was the last one to end.
With the post atomic horror along, with the colonel green wanting to euthanize civilians for radiation poisoning, it suggests the war was nuclear.

Spock said in the 90's earth was on the verge of the dark ages.

But that depends if you count the Eugenics war and WW III as the same thing, which TOS pretty much said outright.
I think these are the quotes from TOS:

Space Seed wrote:
SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid-1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
Savage Curtain wrote:
And Colonel Green, who led a genocidal war early in the 21st century on Earth
Bread and Circuses wrote:
SPOCK: Situations quite familiar to the six million who died in your first world war, the eleven million who died in your second, the thirty seven million who died in your third. Shall I go on?
I don't think it's until TNG that Green becomes associated with WWIII, because that show placed WWIII in the 21st Century.
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Old September 2 2013, 04:42 PM   #124
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Spock says the last of earth's world wars occurred in the mid 90's.
SPOCK: The mid 1990's was the era of your last so called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
SPOCK: Of course. Your attempt to improve the race through selective breeding.

My take is that what happen there is Spock confused the eugenics war (1990's) and the third world war (2050's), and then McCoy corrected him, at which point Spock acknowledge his mistake with his "of course."

A lot of it is due to ret-conning every time a new twist is put on the subject.
I have a fairly low opinion of "retcon" in general. While some small amount is going to exist, to my mind it better to at least attempt to reconcile the majority of the details into one continuity.

Ds9 says the Eugenics wars happened in the 22nd century.
In ST: Enterprise, Captain Archer mentions a grandfather who fought in the eugenics war in Africa. given the date of ST: Enterprise, Archer's age, and that Archer was referring to a "grandfather," there would seem to have been more than one eugenics war. Seperated in time by over a century

Yet Colonel Green led a genocidal war in the early 21st century.
Excalbian: "And Colonel Green, who led a genocidal war early in the 21st century on Earth.

A seperate war still from the the eugenics war and the third world war. Perhaps something like the Kosovo war in scale, with Colonel Green leading one of the ethnic guerilla groups. In the DS9 episode Past Tense one of the characters (in the year 2024) remarks that "Europe is falling apart."

But that depends if you count the Eugenics war and WW III as the same thing, which TOS pretty much said outright.
TOS did no such thing. It's pretty clear that they were different wars.

I think the original idea was that there was a world wide war that nearly wiped out humanity and civilization and it scared them enough to began working together and change for the better.
I just don't see that particular scenario being the one that would bring Humanity together. To unite with the people who just got through slaughtering large numbers of your families and countrymen just doesn't make any sense.

A somewhat different scenario could be this. The third world war left about 94 percent of the Human race live, in the countries that were directly involved in the war there would be dead, injuried and sick. Heavy damage to the physical inferstructure and economies. But there would be large numbers of countries that were largely untouched (physically) by the war, after the war they prospered and move into the power vacuum that resulted from the former major players being absent from the world stage. Gradually they assimilate and annexed the war damaged countries and their populations. Basically they "took over" the Earth. These would be the countries who formed the New United Nations, and United Earth, and other international organizations. Sent colonies to the other planets and the stars.

These would be the people that the Vulcans interacted with in the Vulcan's efforts to assist the Humans, because they had fuctioning governments and economies.

There was never a port-war kumbaya moment.



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Old September 2 2013, 11:32 PM   #125
Nightdiamond
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

T'Girl wrote: View Post
SPOCK: The mid 1990's was the era of your last so called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
SPOCK: Of course. Your attempt to improve the race through selective breeding.

My take is that what happen there is Spock confused the eugenics war (1990's) and the third world war (2050's), and then McCoy corrected him, at which point Spock acknowledge his mistake with his "of course."
That interpretation could be true, but the problem with that scenario is that it can go either way.

The other way being that Spock mentioning the last of the world wars and then Mccoy agreeing by being more specific.

Mccoy didn't make it point to say Spock was incorrect, he simply went further and said the Eugenics wars.

And knowing Mccoy, he would have definitely let Spock know he was wrong-- notice after Spock's statement, Mccoy strongly disagrees with him:

MCCOY: Now, wait a minute. Not our attempt, Mister Spock. A group of ambitious scientists. I'm sure you know the type. Devoted to logic, completely unemotional
I have a fairly low opinion of "retcon" in general. While some small amount is going to exist, to my mind it better to at least attempt to reconcile the majority of the details into one continuity.
Agreed.

But that depends if you count the Eugenics war and WW III as the same thing, which TOS pretty much said outright.
TOS did no such thing. It's pretty clear that they were different wars.
As long as Spock made that statement, and there is a very good reason to believe that was intended, it has to go on record that TOS stated that WW III and the Eugenics wars were one and the same.

Just as an example of what TOS may have been intending, in Let This Be Your Last Battlefield, Sulu claims that persecution used to happen, but it ended after the 20th century. The same time of the Eugenics wars..

I just don't see that particular scenario being the one that would bring Humanity together. To unite with the people who just got through slaughtering large numbers of your families and countrymen just doesn't make any sense.
There was never a port-war kumbaya moment.
The thing is, that is the most common Trek theme for cultures 'evolving' and becoming peaceful. The typical, 'we were on the verge of wiping ourselves out, but then we changed'.

In First Contact, according to Troi, just an idea was enough to cause major changes--

TROI: It unites humanity in a way no one ever thought possible when they realize they're not alone in the universe. Poverty, disease, war. They'll all be gone within the next fifty years.
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Old September 5 2013, 04:30 AM   #126
T'Girl
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
There was never a post-war kumbaya moment.
The thing is, that is the most common Trek theme for cultures 'evolving' and becoming peaceful. The typical, 'we were on the verge of wiping ourselves out, but then we changed'.

In First Contact, according to Troi, just an idea was enough to cause major changes ...
But it wasn't "just an idea."

What Troi was specifically speaking of wasn't Humanity pulling together owing to the events of the third world war. Instead it was first contact with an alien race, combined with Cochrane's warp flight and the subsequent exploration of the galaxy by mankind. This (according to Troi) is what united Humanity.

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
I think the original idea was that there was a world wide war that nearly wiped out humanity and civilization and it scared them enough to began working together and change for the better.
I still don't think that this is what united Humanity.


Last edited by T'Girl; September 5 2013 at 05:04 AM.
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Old September 5 2013, 01:15 PM   #127
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
There was never a post-war kumbaya moment.
The thing is, that is the most common Trek theme for cultures 'evolving' and becoming peaceful. The typical, 'we were on the verge of wiping ourselves out, but then we changed'.

In First Contact, according to Troi, just an idea was enough to cause major changes ...
But it wasn't "just an idea."

What Troi was specifically speaking of wasn't Humanity pulling together owing to the events of the third world war. Instead it was first contact with an alien race, combined with Cochrane's warp flight and the subsequent exploration of the galaxy by mankind. This (according to Troi) is what united Humanity.
That's correct. Troi was speaking specifically about first contact, and the consequences of warp drive. That's why they were so desperate for Cochrane to make his flight.
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Old September 5 2013, 01:52 PM   #128
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

T'Girl wrote: View Post
What Troi was specifically speaking of wasn't Humanity pulling together owing to the events of the third world war. Instead it was first contact with an alien race, combined with Cochrane's warp flight and the subsequent exploration of the galaxy by mankind. This (according to Troi) is what united Humanity.
Exactly, and I like to think it would happen that way in our world. I remember watching President Reagan giving a speech back in the '80s where he predicted that this would probably happen if we met an alien race. I really loved that speech.
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Old September 5 2013, 04:04 PM   #129
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

T'Girl wrote: View Post
But it wasn't "just an idea."

What Troi was specifically speaking of wasn't Humanity pulling together owing to the events of the third world war. Instead it was first contact with an alien race, combined with Cochrane's warp flight and the subsequent exploration of the galaxy by mankind. This (according to Troi) is what united Humanity.
1001001 wrote: View Post
That's correct. Troi was speaking specifically about first contact, and the consequences of warp drive. That's why they were so desperate for Cochrane to make his flight.
Agreed, you're right on the point that first contact is what united humanity and got them to make changes. That's what I was getting at too.

As far as current canon is concerned, First Contact with the Vulcans is what united Humanity.

It was the idea of it that spurred a lot of quick progess--

Here is the actual dialogue;

TROI: It unites humanity in a way no one ever thought possible when they realise they're not alone in the universe. Poverty, disease, war. They'll all be gone within the next fifty years.
It seems to describe an example of how Kumbaya moment can happen based on idea, which is, 'hey you're not alone in the universe'.

My view is, Trek may have originally intended WW III to have been the last war, and after that humans made serious changes to their society.

One reason is there was never any mention of first contact with the Vulcans as being a reason until it was eventually inserted into canon decades later.

Here's an example of what Chekov and Sulu were saying about Earth;

CHEKOV: There was persecution on Earth once. I remember reading about it in my history class.
SULU: Yes, but it happened way back in the twentieth century. There's no such primitive thinking today.
This is roughly the same time period of the Eugenics/WW III wars which ended before the 21st century.

They're saying there was no longer any persecution on Earth after the year 2000? That means the Sanctuary Districts, Colonel Green, The Post Atomic Horror and WW III would have to be erased from canon in order for things to make sense.
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Old September 5 2013, 09:54 PM   #130
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Sulu may have meant the 2000s but simply confused it with the designation "20th century". Easy enough to do when you're used to a different dating system, and it's not like he was trying to be exact.

Heck, before Y2k, whenever I discussed it with people, there was always someone who thought we were living in the 19th century.

I recall at least one quote where Kirk makes a reference to events of the 19th century and Spock corrects him to mean the 20th century. I can't find any reference to it online, so it might have come from one of the Blish novelizations. But still -- it's known to happen.
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Old September 7 2013, 12:36 AM   #131
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Heck, before Y2k, whenever I discussed it with people, there was always someone who thought we were living in the 19th century.
Tru dat!!!!
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Old September 7 2013, 01:52 AM   #132
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

If truth you seek, only pain you will find.

Buck Rogers dated itself at 1987.

At some point things like this happen to any sci-fi show that attempts to construct a future history.
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Old September 7 2013, 03:55 AM   #133
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
CHEKOV: There was persecution on Earth once. I remember reading about it in my history class.

SULU: Yes, but it happened way back in the twentieth century. There's no such primitive thinking today.
That means the Sanctuary Districts, Colonel Green, The Post Atomic Horror and WW III would have to be erased from canon in order for things to make sense.
Not necessarily, it would depend on what "persecution" Chekov and Sulu were referring to. Or even if they were both referring to the same persecuction.

If what they were thinking about was something that (from a 23rd century perspective) ended during the course of the 20th century, then the statements would have been accurate

My view is, Trek may have originally intended WW III to have been the last war, and after that humans made serious changes to their society.
That there would be serious changes to Human society would seem to be a invention of the TNG era of shows. The original TOS era had Humanity as the same basic people we are now, but with more advanced technology. Roddenberry's more optimistic future at that point was that we survived at all.

Troi: Poverty, disease, war. They'll all be gone within the next fifty years.
A less than accurate statement on Troi's part really. In the case of diseases, it hard to see how Troi thought that diseases disappeared, all of the Trek series indicated that diseases are a on-going problems for Humans.

And war never disappeared, it just moved off world.

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Old September 7 2013, 07:57 AM   #134
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

austen_pierce wrote: View Post
If truth you seek, only pain you will find.

Buck Rogers dated itself at 1987.

At some point things like this happen to any sci-fi show that attempts to construct a future history.
The writers in the 60's didn't anticipate that there would be movies and spinoff series that would still exist in the 90's, otherwise they would have set these large scale historical events later, like in the 2050s.
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Old September 7 2013, 02:07 PM   #135
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Enow wrote: View Post
Mankind is broken. History reports that no matter how good a system is, if evil men run it, then no good will come of it.
Mankind is awesome.

Things break down because nothing is perfect, nothing is eternal, and evil exists.

But man is evolving, society is moving forward. We've abolished slavery in most places, wars are smaller than 70 years ago, less numerous, etc. And poverty is being fought. Of course none of that is perfect, or works all the time. But the point is that we're slowly crawling forward. Not everybody is participating, and only a few of us are actually brillant and innovative. So what ? In the end we're getting better.
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