RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,586
Posts: 5,424,044
Members: 24,809
Currently online: 552
Newest member: Super Scout

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12

New Wizkids Attack Wing Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Coto Drama Sold To Fox
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Braga Inks Deal
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Remastered Original Series Re-release
By: T'Bonz on Sep 11

UK Trek Ships Calendar Debuts
By: T'Bonz on Sep 10


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 5 2013, 06:51 PM   #631
KaraBear
Captain
 
KaraBear's Avatar
 
Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
They didn't outfight the Odyssey, they destroyed in in a Kamikaze attack. Those tend to be pretty effective when you're a flying antimatter bomb.

"Scorpion" is where everyone keeps saying the Borg Decay started, because the mere THOUGHT of there being ONE Species out there that could fight the Borg was utter heresy to them because for some bizarre reason they saw the Borg as some ultimate enemy.

They're not, they never were. They're just cyborgs who are tougher than the Feds.
THIS!!!
KaraBear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 09:54 AM   #632
Stoo
Captain
 
Stoo's Avatar
 
Location: Circle of the Tyrants
Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
They didn't outfight the Odyssey, they destroyed in in a Kamikaze attack. Those tend to be pretty effective when you're a flying antimatter bomb.

"Scorpion" is where everyone keeps saying the Borg Decay started, because the mere THOUGHT of there being ONE Species out there that could fight the Borg was utter heresy to them because for some bizarre reason they saw the Borg as some ultimate enemy.

They're not, they never were. They're just cyborgs who are tougher than the Feds.
Okay now you're just confusing me. You complain about the dominion getting different treatment from fans then when I acknowledge they suffer similar villain decay you argue!

Oydssey was only destroyed in the Kamikaze attack, sure, but it was already heavily damaged and retreating. I'd call that a loss. I recall the Defiant had a tough time with battlebugs also, in its first fight.

re: the Borg, I'm pretty sure they were initially meant as a threat way above powers comparable to the federation. They weren't just a moderately tough baddie in Best of Both Worlds. It wasn't a player on the scale of the Romulan empire. This was something new, terrifying and seemingly unstoppable.

This was something they lost over the course of Voyager. Maybe it started earlier, I dunno. First Contact at least made defeating a cube difficult (and Voyager never did personally take down a cube), but I never really liked the idea of a Queen. It added a personal side to them which somehow makes them a touch more vulnerable.

But then it continued with Voyager and they just weren't so scary. I've already pondered Scorpion and the ways it could have been done differently, although you seem to keep falling back to complaining about your mysterious "everyone". I'm not talking about ridiculous emotive terms like Heresy, my concern is how can you implement a supposedly vastly superior enemy, then keep them that way without becoming just another Villain of the Week.
Stoo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 03:31 PM   #633
Anwar
Vice Admiral
 
Anwar's Avatar
 
Location: Regina, SK, Canada
Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Stoo wrote: View Post
Okay now you're just confusing me. You complain about the dominion getting different treatment from fans then when I acknowledge they suffer similar villain decay you argue!
I was agreeing with you. I was pointing out it wasn't even a total clear-cut victory without the kamikaze attack.

re: the Borg, I'm pretty sure they were initially meant as a threat way above powers comparable to the federation. They weren't just a moderately tough baddie in Best of Both Worlds. It wasn't a player on the scale of the Romulan empire. This was something new, terrifying and seemingly unstoppable.
The Feds saw them as such, then they got their act together and showed that they could fight back. What didn't make sense was how the show treated the Borg like some super-threat when they really weren't anything new compared to super-threats the Feds faced in the past anyways.

But then it continued with Voyager and they just weren't so scary.
It was because the VOY crew weren't scared of them.

I've already pondered Scorpion and the ways it could have been done differently, although you seem to keep falling back to complaining about your mysterious "everyone". I'm not talking about ridiculous emotive terms like Heresy, my concern is how can you implement a supposedly vastly superior enemy, then keep them that way without becoming just another Villain of the Week.
You can't, not unless you don't stupidly overpower them in the first place.

For example, instead of it just being a Cube that attacks in BOBW it is the Borg Unicomplex itself. It's made clear that this thing is a one-of-a-kind super Vessel and it's more powerful than an entire Armada of Cubes.

Then when it's destroyed at the end, make it clear that the Core of the Borg has been destroyed. This isn't just one victory against one vessel, this is a MAJOR blow to the Collective that will cripple them for centuries. Every Borg encounter from this point on will be easier.

When VOY shows us the Borg, it's all just weaker ships that don't have 1/100th of the power of the Unicomplex and the Collective is still weak from the loss of the Unicomplex.
Anwar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 03:47 PM   #634
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

When is it made clear from watchin BOBW that it was some sort of super cube, I must have missed that line of dialouge?
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 03:52 PM   #635
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
When is it made clear from watchin BOBW that it was some sort of super cube, I must have missed that line of dialouge?
Sounds like the reasoning of an apologist to me.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 06:54 PM   #636
Anwar
Vice Admiral
 
Anwar's Avatar
 
Location: Regina, SK, Canada
Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Well, we never ever saw a Borg Cube as huge or powerful as that one ever again (The Cube in FC was smaller and weaker).

I'm just suggesting an alternative to BOBW that would set up VOY better, by not having the vessel in BOBW be a normal Cube but their single most powerful vessel (The Unicomplex seen in VOY) and have its destruction be a crippling blow to the Collective.

That way, it's set up so that the Borg in VOY have already been crippled and all the ships seen in VOY were ultra-weak compared to the one seen in TNG so it's believable that VOY can defeat them because they aren't that strong to begin with.

Otherwise, we're stuck either with weakening the Borg by having VOY survive or make the crew of VOY a bunch of pathetic cowards who don't have a single victory against ANYONE throughout the entire series.

EDIT: And no, "Don't use the Borg very much" isn't an option.
Anwar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 07:27 PM   #637
KaraBear
Captain
 
KaraBear's Avatar
 
Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

I think people overlook that many times they encountered the borg they paid a price. they often took heavy damage, and they lost the Delta Flyer to a (planned) attack, they even had crew members assimilated

even in endgame, when they saw that the nebula was full of borg they turned and fled. they were plenty "scared" of the borg
KaraBear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 07:41 PM   #638
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Well, we never ever saw a Borg Cube as huge or powerful as that one ever again (The Cube in FC was smaller and weaker).

I'm just suggesting an alternative to BOBW that would set up VOY better, by not having the vessel in BOBW be a normal Cube but their single most powerful vessel (The Unicomplex seen in VOY) and have its destruction be a crippling blow to the Collective.

That way, it's set up so that the Borg in VOY have already been crippled and all the ships seen in VOY were ultra-weak compared to the one seen in TNG so it's believable that VOY can defeat them because they aren't that strong to begin with.

Otherwise, we're stuck either with weakening the Borg by having VOY survive or make the crew of VOY a bunch of pathetic cowards who don't have a single victory against ANYONE throughout the entire series.

EDIT: And no, "Don't use the Borg very much" isn't an option.
When/were was it established that the cube in FC was smaller than the one in BOBW?

Your arguing facts not in evidence.

Perhaps it would have been better if they had used something along the lines of your suggestion it might have worked, but als they didn't and we are stuck with what we have.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 08:55 PM   #639
Melakon
Vice Admiral
 
Melakon's Avatar
 
Location: Unmarked grave, Ekos
Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

It might simply look like a more compact design-- though how anything can be more compact than a cube is a mystery-- due to a new model in First Contact. One thing we know for certain is the cube in BoBW is of the same dimensions of the one at System J-25.
__________________
Curly: If at first you don't succeed, keep on suckin' til you do succeed.
--Movie Maniacs (1936)
Melakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 09:14 PM   #640
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

True, but I suspect that one Galaxy Class ship has the same dimensions as another Galaxy Ship. And as the Borg seek perfection you would expect each and every vessel of the same type to be exactly the same dimensions.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 10:15 PM   #641
Melakon
Vice Admiral
 
Melakon's Avatar
 
Location: Unmarked grave, Ekos
Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Perhaps the cubes also serve as floating shipyards, constructing additional vessels for a fleet between themselves. Standardized blueprints for different designs. Like VW kept manufacturing the Beetle for decades.
__________________
Curly: If at first you don't succeed, keep on suckin' til you do succeed.
--Movie Maniacs (1936)
Melakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7 2013, 12:14 AM   #642
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

KaraBear wrote: View Post
I think people overlook that many times they encountered the borg they paid a price. they often took heavy damage, and they lost the Delta Flyer to a (planned) attack, they even had crew members assimilated

even in endgame, when they saw that the nebula was full of borg they turned and fled. they were plenty "scared" of the borg
Can't have been that heavy damage, the ship looked brand new next episode. It looks like they managed to build/replace shuttles/the delta flyer easily . As for the crew that number seemed to fluctuate from one episode to the next. They never really sold the fact the encounter with the Borg caused any serious hardship for the crew. It wasn't as if they could replace those crew members
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7 2013, 12:23 AM   #643
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

My theory is that we didn't often view the same Voyager, but instead each week we slid sideways through into slightly different yet almost identical mirror universes, which explains the lack of continuity, the glaring discontinuity and the metaphysical manic hammering of the reset button.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7 2013, 04:45 AM   #644
Anwar
Vice Admiral
 
Anwar's Avatar
 
Location: Regina, SK, Canada
Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

MacLeod wrote: View Post

When/were was it established that the cube in FC was smaller than the one in BOBW?
Visually, it is smaller. The Borg Cube in "Q Who?" and BOBW was really massive, always taking up the screen when the Enterprise was next to it. The Cube in FC wasn't super-big compared to the Starfleet ships in the battle. Big, but nowhere near as big as how the BOBW Cube was.

Perhaps it would have been better if they had used something along the lines of your suggestion it might have worked, but als they didn't and we are stuck with what we have.
Yes, that stupidly overpowering an enemy that appears more than one is a bad idea.

Can't have been that heavy damage, the ship looked brand new next episode. It looks like they managed to build/replace shuttles/the delta flyer easily . As for the crew that number seemed to fluctuate from one episode to the next. They never really sold the fact the encounter with the Borg caused any serious hardship for the crew. It wasn't as if they could replace those crew member
The Enterprise-D looked brand new after BOBW as well, and didn't show any significant loss to their crew either.
Anwar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7 2013, 08:01 AM   #645
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Yes but immediatly after BOBW, the Ent-D put into dry-dock in orbit over Earth. So any damage could be repaired and some crew could be replaced.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
borg

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:20 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.