RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,063
Posts: 5,397,641
Members: 24,735
Currently online: 449
Newest member: phurren

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Retro Watches
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

New DS9 eBook To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

Trek Ice Cube Maker and Shot Glasses
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

City on the Edge of Forever #3 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

TV Alert: Shatner TNG Documentary
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

Forbes Cast In Powers
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

Dorn To Voice Firefly Character
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

No ALS Ice Bucket For Saldana
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 5 2013, 11:18 PM   #91
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Praetor wrote: View Post
Much like the engineering "cathedral," one of the things that has always intrigued me the most is just how much of a forced perspective we are looking at here. We know the miniature itself was built with a degree of forced perspective.
From what I've read I don't think the miniature actually was built with forced perspective even though the drawings in TMoST would lead you to believe so.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 01:38 AM   #92
neoworx
Lieutenant
 
neoworx's Avatar
 
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
@ ZapBrannigan

Apparently you are not the "last man on the planet" not to be capable to do a proper photoanalysis as this would be me.

Noticing what seem or are discrepancies and asking questions about these is "horribly wrong". I don't think the real Rod Serling (RIP) would have ever approved such an attitude.

Bob
It's a difficult thing to get your head around so I certainly understand the confusion. Think of it like this. You are assuming that the camera is in the same place and pointed in the same direction in all the shots, ie: along the center line of the deck. I am assuming that in the two "Wall" photos that the camera is first moved left and is pointed to the port wall and then the opposite way in the second.

Imagine standing 20 feet out from your garage door along its center axis. Looking forward, you'll see things slightly differently than if you move slightly left or right. You see the same stuff, but not in the same way.

That's what I think is happening here.

As for shots that are done right down the center, a normal lens would yield one type of detail while a wide angle would yield another. A telephoto would yield yet a third field of view. You can shoot with all three lenses and get the same structures in the shots, but all three will look different. Specifically, things on different planes will "move" relative to other structures.
__________________
Don
wrathofdhan.com
wrathofdhanprops.blogspot.com

Last edited by neoworx; September 6 2013 at 01:50 AM.
neoworx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 02:46 AM   #93
Praetor
Vice Admiral
 
Praetor's Avatar
 
Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Warped9 wrote: View Post
From what I've read I don't think the miniature actually was built with forced perspective even though the drawings in TMoST would lead you to believe so.
Interesting... what was the deal with the drawings, then?
__________________
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q
Praetor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 03:09 AM   #94
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

I just checked the shuttlebay diagrams in TMoST, and I don't see any indication of forced perspective there. They depict the length and proportions of the shuttlebay in a manner consistent with the profile drawings of the Enterprise on other pages.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 03:34 AM   #95
ZapBrannigan
Fleet Captain
 
ZapBrannigan's Avatar
 
Location: New York State
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

I'm stuck at work now. With respect to the size of the ship's exterior, has anybody measured to see if there's really room for Jeffries' inner shell, meaning Franz Joseph's version of the Hangar is too big?





Or did FJ fix a scaling error by elimating the shell and having the Hangar's inner wall be the ship's hull?




Last edited by ZapBrannigan; September 6 2013 at 03:49 AM.
ZapBrannigan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 03:40 AM   #96
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

When Gary Kerr was researching for Round2/Polar Lights' 1/350 scale TOS Enterprise model kit he learned that you can get such a hangar deck into the ship. McGagen (who posts on Hobbytalk) has built a 3D Enterprise with a MJ hangar exactly where it's supposed to be. His work is outstanding, too.

It will fit in a 947ft. ship, but it's a close fit. A 1080ft. ship would give you a bit more room to play with. Matt Jefferies had a pretty damned good idea of what he was doing.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 04:24 AM   #97
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

It'll sorta fit in a 947' ship if you make the side bays very narrow. Fits comfortably in a 1084' ship. The observation deck seen from "The Conscience of the King" however will not fit in any of the observation areas as seen on screen and the only place I would or could put that space is forward of the flight deck (basically behind the camera's position.)

blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 04:54 AM   #98
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post


Sorry, Christopher, but everything about those drawings smacks of forced perspective.
__________________
* * *
"If you wanted to get a good meeting... just go in and
say 'darker, grittier, sexier' and whatever."
—Glen Larson, 2010
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 10:48 AM   #99
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

neoworx wrote: View Post
Specifically, things on different planes will "move" relative to other structures.
I am aware of the distortions created by different shooting angles and the use of different lenses.

But here is, again, what is apparently the original VFX model prior to last minute additions (signage, equipment [?] box):



And here is the color close-up that is supposedly a shot of the same and original VFX model:



In the color shot the photpgrapher has moved closer to the port side wall and logically the inner shuttlebay wall is now shielding parts of the embayments from our view.

But the long embayment is not nearly deep enough to enable the inner shuttlebay wall to possibly shield that much of this embayment (and to get this close to the "Warning Fire" sign), IMO.
Also, in the original shot the "Elevators" black direction arrow is outside the white text field while in the close-up shot it is inside the white text field!


Regarding the Jefferies sketches of the hangar deck I find it interesting that in the side view cross-section sketch the observation corridor has pairs of triple windows, while the stern view cross-section suggests only pairs ot two.

Almost looks like the shuttlebay model builders didn't know which one was the final word and went along with the suggestion of the stern view cross-section.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 01:36 PM   #100
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Maurice wrote: View Post
Sorry, Christopher, but everything about those drawings smacks of forced perspective.
First off: Compare them to the side views of the ship several pages earlier and later. The proportions are consistent. The shuttlebay is supposed to taper toward the rear. This isn't a case where a set or miniature is tapered to create the illusion of something longer and straighter. You can clearly see that the rear of the ship itself does, in fact, taper.

Second: If it were a forced-perspective miniature, then those diagrams would be of the miniature. But they're not. They're rendered as cutaway diagrams of the "actual" ship, complete with the outer hull and the dome on top, things that wouldn't have been seen in the miniature and thus wouldn't have been built. Plus there are the people standing there for scale. So those drawings are meant to be representations of the full-size hangar bay within the ship, not construction plans for a miniature.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 03:02 PM   #101
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

If you look closely at those cutaway drawings of the Hangar Deck from TMoST you can see that the observation platform is not parallel to the flight deck. It angles downward whereas the horizontal lines of the shuttlecraft are parallel to the deck. So the drawing does look like a rendering for a forced perspective set. That would be significant if you intended to build an almost full scale set of the hangar deck, but building a miniature---even one about ten feet long---you don't have to build it with forced perspective. You just have to use the right lens when filming it.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 03:07 PM   #102
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Good point. Why use forced perspective for a miniature? That's belt and suspenders. Forced perspective is something you use to reduce the size of the thing you're building so you don't have to use as much space and materials. If you want to do that with a miniature, you just scale the whole miniature down.

Granted, the observation corridor does slope down a little. But I don't think that's forced perspective -- just perspective. We can see from the exterior of the ship that the hull does actually taper in toward the rear, and the upper hull slopes down. So the hangar had to be designed to fit into a tapering space, one where the roof sloped relative to the deck. If the observation corridors had run perfectly parallel to the deck, that probably would've looked wrong to the viewer's eye because it wouldn't have fit into the lines of perspective suggested by the shape of the space. After all, the audience would only ever see the miniature from the front, looking in the direction of the vanishing point. So it was probably an aesthetic choice.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 03:19 PM   #103
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

In a real space with circular walls tapering to the stern you would also have to deal with walls/ceiling with a decreasing radius.

One day I'm thinking of doing what others have done and try making a 3D model of the Hangar Deck. I still think MGagen's is the best. I've ever seen.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 03:56 PM   #104
Praetor
Vice Admiral
 
Praetor's Avatar
 
Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Well, allow me to be the last horse returning to the barn; it was the angled taper of the observation deck when viewed from the side that led me to believe it was intended to be a forced perspective, as others have already said.
__________________
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q
Praetor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6 2013, 04:11 PM   #105
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: Photo request -- Enterprise hangar deck studio miniature

Here is the link to the discussion regarding MGagen's model: http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/archiv.../t-387600.html

Some samples.




It should be noted that MGagen took a slightly different approach in that he treated the hangar as a space with constant radius walls rather than tapering ones. He also strived to take into account the structural concerns of the support pylons in connecting to the secondary hull. I think he did an amazing job.


Image links:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...psa9fa6d17.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps20b253e6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps3da77f3f.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...psc1e28981.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps75dd6493.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps418d3b43.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps3a598469.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps646981e9.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps117a6698.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps4ab23ed6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps20b253e6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps20b253e6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps48134a6f.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps465eadb0.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps9c554fd7.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...psfa90cbc9.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...psfc07bbd5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps37aa0810.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...pse68dbf3e.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps7c1f461c.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps019ba755.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...psa2b803c5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps0ad26ab4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps59bb4664.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...5.jpg~original

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...1.jpg~original

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...2.jpg~original

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...0.jpg~original

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10....jpg~original\

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...0.jpg~original

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...4.jpg~original

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...a.jpg~original

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...f.jpg~original

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...3.jpg~original
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:09 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.