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Old August 19 2013, 07:47 PM   #91
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Re: 2013 NBA Offseason Thread...

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
http://www.nba.com/2013/news/08/16/w...s=iref:nbahpts

Pekovic has re-signed with the Wolves.
The Miami Heat have won two straight titles with undersized Chris Bosh playing the bulk of the minutes at center. Timberwolves coach Rick Adelman often used 6-foot-6 Chuck Hayes at center when he coached the Houston Rockets. The Boston Celtics stayed relevant in large part thanks to Kevin Garnett's willingness to move from power forward to center.
Kills me how so many of the so called experts label whatever happened most recently a "trend". Just 3 seasons ago the Lakers dominated the league playing two seven footers. Back then the "trend" was toward stockpiling big men.

Now that the LeBrons have won two in a row, the "trend" is toward small ball. As soon as the Heat fail to win a championship, most likely this coming season, whoever wins and the method by which they win, will be declared the new NBA "trend". You really have to look further than the most recent NBA champion to discover real trends in the league.
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Old August 19 2013, 10:24 PM   #92
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Re: 2013 NBA Offseason Thread...

I don't think the trend can ever be stockpiling big men because there aren't enough talented 7 footers in the league to support that.
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Old August 20 2013, 08:09 PM   #93
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Re: 2013 NBA Offseason Thread...

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
I don't think the trend can ever be stockpiling big men because there aren't enough talented 7 footers in the league to support that.
Oh, it was most definitely perceived as a "trend", regardless of skill levels of the various bigs being signed. Teams, especially those in the west, thought they had to "stockpile" bigs in order to compete with Bynum and Gasol.

Miami's "small ball" formula is an illusion. They just signed Greg Oden. Riles knows that there still is no substitute for height even though the Heat hasn't seemed to need it in the last 2 years. They were able to win with a small team because of LeBron, and because they faced the not ready for primetime Thunder, (who weren't exactly "big" themelves) and had HCA against the Spurs (who were "big", but didn't have HCA). But going for a 3-peat, Riles knows the "trends" are a bunch of bunk.
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Old August 20 2013, 08:36 PM   #94
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Re: 2013 NBA Offseason Thread...

I agree about Miami's smallball (as a strategy) being incorrect (although I suspect they'll mostly be small ball because of Oden's health problems), but I have no memory of claims that stockpiling centers was a trend. Can you find any stories reporting on this trend because I just don't remember it?

ETA: In other news, Lebron James finally shaves his head. Good, now we can stop dealing with this headband bullshit.
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Old August 21 2013, 08:17 PM   #95
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Re: 2013 NBA Offseason Thread...

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
I agree about Miami's smallball (as a strategy) being incorrect (although I suspect they'll mostly be small ball because of Oden's health problems), but I have no memory of claims that stockpiling centers was a trend. Can you find any stories reporting on this trend because I just don't remember it?

ETA: In other news, Lebron James finally shaves his head. Good, now we can stop dealing with this headband bullshit.

The trend in the NBA is towards putting the best five players on the court, regardless of position, and sharing the responsibilities on the floor (ball-handling, shooting, rebounding, defense, etc.) with all five players. Why? Because teams will force you to put the ball in the hands of the guy who cannot shoot the basketball. They will force a bad shot. The game is quicker because the rules ask it to be. Transition hoops are best because there's a large area of the floor, around the basket, where you cannot stand. The key. Big men cannot keep up with those players running the floor. They are too big and usually lack the quickness or skill to swipe a ball. They usually commit a foul. 2 of those in the fourth quarter, the big man is done until the 2nd quarter. One more, he's done for the half. They get pulled. Even Dwight Howard.

Going back to 2009, the Lakers won, but the Orlando Magic was re-defining positions around the league with Ryan Anderson, Rashard Lewis, and Hedo Turkoglu, and taking Howard off the floor in key moments because of his foul shooting and foul trouble. The Seattle Supersonics, for instance, were a token team in 2005, one that couldn't make it past the second round, doing a lot of the same things.

The problem with a big man, in the traditional sense, is that they can only catch the ball, and score, in a certain area. The trend is for more athletic big men (Chris Andersen, for instance, was the guy for the Heat) and less of the back-to-the-basket players. This is because no one can stand in the paint anymore, except on a rebound. This, again, is because of the rules. Teams that play with bigs, traditional bigs, need shooting around them. When they have good guards, and not spot-shooters, the big man becomes almost irrelevant, with exceptions to rebounding, on the offensive end. Why pay Kendrick Perkins 12 million dollars if he can't stay on the floor and can't stop the other team from scoring, can't score on the block (because he has no post game)? Andersen came at 1 million dollars this season? No need to get him a shot, just keep him around the rim. And even San Antonio exposed him. But he's not eating the cap when they happens now.

The league is built for speed and shooting now. Teams that are quick to get up the floor, players that have a good first-step to create seperation, they are the ones making an impact around the league. Go back 10 years and watch the Sacramento Kings, a fun offense, and nothing like what we see now in terms of pace. So you have a player that's lumbering up and down the court with 250-300 pounds on his backside, who starts at the worst possible position for transition defense. He's standing under the basket at the other end of the floor. He's not mobile enough to stop the outlet pass to a player that can run the court end to end. So it's an easy score. Watch how the Grizzlies play sometime. Now, they are the token team.

This is not to say that post play is entirely dead. It's just not the seven-footers doing the posting up. And when you do, if the ball is dribbled more than 2 dribbles, the defense collapses and you're putting up a bad shot, and that's before they call defensive 3-seconds, or get you for backing down a player from 20-feet out. So there's no room to stay in the lane anymore. Dikembe Mutombo wouldn't be waiving his finger in today's NBA. Pay attention to the rules.

The Lakers' big men were able to pass, shoot from the outside, and hit their foul shots. Bynum is the only one who couldn't and how many times did they make the Finals with Andrew Bynum lost for the playoffs? 2 out of 3 years?
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Old August 21 2013, 08:18 PM   #96
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Re: 2013 NBA Offseason Thread...

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
I agree about Miami's smallball (as a strategy) being incorrect (although I suspect they'll mostly be small ball because of Oden's health problems), but I have no memory of claims that stockpiling centers was a trend. Can you find any stories reporting on this trend because I just don't remember it?
I don't recal specific articles either, but I wasn't going strictly by my memory of what was written when I said that acquiring bigs became the trend in the NBA when the Lakers were on their last run. I was going by my memory of what some teams actually did.

It is the reason the Thunder acquired Kendrick Perkins to go along with Ibaka, the Spurs' aquisition of Tago Splitter to team with Duncan, the Mavs aquisition of Tyson Chandler along with Drew Gooden, Brendan Heywood, and Erick Dampier, the Suns' aquisition of Shaq, the Memphis Grizz. There were other miscellaneous lower tiered bigs (and teams) signed by other various teams. All these teams were following what they perceived as a (winning) trend.

The point is that teams who look at the last couple NBA champs and think they are seeing a "trend" that will guarantee similar results IF you follow the trend, will likely be sitting at home in June. And the so called "pundits" who look to the last few NBA champs and see a "trend" as the "new direction" in the league will almost always end up looking bad.
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Old August 21 2013, 11:24 PM   #97
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Re: 2013 NBA Offseason Thread...

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
The trend in the NBA is towards putting the best five players on the court, regardless of position, and sharing the responsibilities on the floor (ball-handling, shooting, rebounding, defense, etc.) with all five players. Why? Because teams will force you to put the ball in the hands of the guy who cannot shoot the basketball. They will force a bad shot. The game is quicker because the rules ask it to be. Transition hoops are best because there's a large area of the floor, around the basket, where you cannot stand. The key. Big men cannot keep up with those players running the floor. They are too big and usually lack the quickness or skill to swipe a ball. They usually commit a foul. 2 of those in the fourth quarter, the big man is done until the 2nd quarter. One more, he's done for the half. They get pulled. Even Dwight Howard.

I think that's fair. Although they still like having a great big man when they can find one (I'm talking hall of fame quality center). The Spurs wouldn't be the Spurs without Tim Duncan. Hell, Duncan's a perfect example of why it's nice to have a good center - rebounding. Duncan was taken out of the game late in game six in order to defend the three point shooters. Unfortunately, it left the Spurs without someone who could rebound. Because of this, the Heat got the rebound and still got the three that the fast people were supposed to defend against.

That being said, I think the days of putting in a mediocre or average center are gone. It's better to go small in those situations. If the Bulls were around today, I could see somebody like Kukoc starting and Luc Longley taking up space on the bench and Rodman under center.
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Old August 22 2013, 12:25 AM   #98
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Re: 2013 NBA Offseason Thread...

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
I agree about Miami's smallball (as a strategy) being incorrect (although I suspect they'll mostly be small ball because of Oden's health problems), but I have no memory of claims that stockpiling centers was a trend. Can you find any stories reporting on this trend because I just don't remember it?

ETA: In other news, Lebron James finally shaves his head. Good, now we can stop dealing with this headband bullshit.

The trend in the NBA is towards putting the best five players on the court, regardless of position, and sharing the responsibilities on the floor (ball-handling, shooting, rebounding, defense, etc.) with all five players. Why? Because teams will force you to put the ball in the hands of the guy who cannot shoot the basketball. They will force a bad shot. The game is quicker because the rules ask it to be. Transition hoops are best because there's a large area of the floor, around the basket, where you cannot stand. The key. Big men cannot keep up with those players running the floor. They are too big and usually lack the quickness or skill to swipe a ball. They usually commit a foul. 2 of those in the fourth quarter, the big man is done until the 2nd quarter. One more, he's done for the half. They get pulled. Even Dwight Howard.

Going back to 2009, the Lakers won, but the Orlando Magic was re-defining positions around the league with Ryan Anderson, Rashard Lewis, and Hedo Turkoglu, and taking Howard off the floor in key moments because of his foul shooting and foul trouble. The Seattle Supersonics, for instance, were a token team in 2005, one that couldn't make it past the second round, doing a lot of the same things.

The problem with a big man, in the traditional sense, is that they can only catch the ball, and score, in a certain area. The trend is for more athletic big men (Chris Andersen, for instance, was the guy for the Heat) and less of the back-to-the-basket players. This is because no one can stand in the paint anymore, except on a rebound. This, again, is because of the rules. Teams that play with bigs, traditional bigs, need shooting around them. When they have good guards, and not spot-shooters, the big man becomes almost irrelevant, with exceptions to rebounding, on the offensive end. Why pay Kendrick Perkins 12 million dollars if he can't stay on the floor and can't stop the other team from scoring, can't score on the block (because he has no post game)? Andersen came at 1 million dollars this season? No need to get him a shot, just keep him around the rim. And even San Antonio exposed him. But he's not eating the cap when they happens now.

The league is built for speed and shooting now. Teams that are quick to get up the floor, players that have a good first-step to create seperation, they are the ones making an impact around the league. Go back 10 years and watch the Sacramento Kings, a fun offense, and nothing like what we see now in terms of pace. So you have a player that's lumbering up and down the court with 250-300 pounds on his backside, who starts at the worst possible position for transition defense. He's standing under the basket at the other end of the floor. He's not mobile enough to stop the outlet pass to a player that can run the court end to end. So it's an easy score. Watch how the Grizzlies play sometime. Now, they are the token team.

This is not to say that post play is entirely dead. It's just not the seven-footers doing the posting up. And when you do, if the ball is dribbled more than 2 dribbles, the defense collapses and you're putting up a bad shot, and that's before they call defensive 3-seconds, or get you for backing down a player from 20-feet out. So there's no room to stay in the lane anymore. Dikembe Mutombo wouldn't be waiving his finger in today's NBA. Pay attention to the rules.

The Lakers' big men were able to pass, shoot from the outside, and hit their foul shots. Bynum is the only one who couldn't and how many times did they make the Finals with Andrew Bynum lost for the playoffs? 2 out of 3 years?
I just lost a post I was writing in response to yours. I will have to reconstruct it from home.
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Old August 22 2013, 08:51 PM   #99
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Re: 2013 NBA Offseason Thread...

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
The trend in the NBA is towards putting the best five players on the court, regardless of position, and sharing the responsibilities on the floor (ball-handling, shooting, rebounding, defense, etc.) with all five players. Why? Because teams will force you to put the ball in the hands of the guy who cannot shoot the basketball. They will force a bad shot.
If you're sugesting here that the best way to attack on offense is by putting 5 guys who can handle on the floor, that sounds like "small ball" to me since there are very very few 7 footers who have ballhandling skills.

This is the type of thinking that sparked this debate. Just because the Heat won last year mostly playing small ball, that is not a good reason to think that this is the best way to win the next championship. The Heat were basically forced to play this way because they just didn't have a good enough 7 footer. They beat the not ready for prim time Thunder because the Thunder were green and were kind of small themselves. They beat the Spurs this past season only because the HEat had HCA and LeBron. Heat lost to the Mavs becasue the Mavs at the time, were VERY big.
Transition hoops are best because there's a large area of the floor, around the basket, where you cannot stand. The key. Big men cannot keep up with those players running the floor. They are too big and usually lack the quickness or skill to swipe a ball. They usually commit a foul. 2 of those in the fourth quarter, the big man is done until the 2nd quarter. One more, he's done for the half. They get pulled. Even Dwight Howard.
Transition hoops can be stopped by getting at least 3 guys back on defense every time down and by offensive rebounding. None of the 3 guys getting back need be a 7 footer. If what you write was true, the Suns, Warriors, and others would have a few recent Finals appearances or wins, at least. Both thse teams have been the (bigger) Lakers' punching bags for years -- well, up until last year.

Going back to 2009, the Lakers won, but the Orlando Magic was re-defining positions around the league with Ryan Anderson, Rashard Lewis, and Hedo Turkoglu, and taking Howard off the floor in key moments because of his foul shooting and foul trouble. The Seattle Supersonics, for instance, were a token team in 2005, one that couldn't make it past the second round, doing a lot of the same things.
You do realize that not all big men are bad free throw shooters, right? And Orlando "redefining positions", to what end? Neither they, nor any of the other teams who have subscribed to the small ball ethic have won anything of any significancs, save Miami.

The problem with a big man, in the traditional sense, is that they can only catch the ball, and score, in a certain area. The trend is for more athletic big men (Chris Andersen, for instance, was the guy for the Heat) and less of the back-to-the-basket players. This is because no one can stand in the paint anymore, except on a rebound.
Not certain what you're talking about here. Good 7 footers, especially those wih good low post offensive skills are always in demand by teams who are serious about competing for championships. That type of game creates easier scoring opportunuties and contributes to getting the other team into foul trouble.

As for the 3 second rule, that has been a part of basketball for at least half a century, why would it all of a sudden present a problem for bigs now? If you mean the 3 second defensive rule, please keep in mind the Lakers, Celtics, Spurs, and Mavs, all teams with dominant bigs have won championships or been to the Finals, since the 3 second defensive rule came into effect.

Teams that play with bigs, traditional bigs, need shooting around them. When they have good guards, and not spot-shooters, the big man becomes almost irrelevant, with exceptions to rebounding, on the offensive end. Why pay Kendrick Perkins 12 million dollars if he can't stay on the floor and can't stop the other team from scoring, can't score on the block (because he has no post game)? Andersen came at 1 million dollars this season? No need to get him a shot, just keep him around the rim. And even San Antonio exposed him. But he's not eating the cap when they happens now.
Get back to me when the Warriors or Suns make it to the Finals playing with guards "good guards" instead of "traditional" big men. Kendrick Perkins is a defensive specialist who is not expected to carry his team's low post scoring load. He is limited in his abilities but is a good fit for the Thunder. Keep in mind, THEY have been to the Finals in the last few seasons.

The league is built for speed and shooting now. Teams that are quick to get up the floor, players that have a good first-step to create seperation, they are the ones making an impact around the league. Go back 10 years and watch the Sacramento Kings, a fun offense, and nothing like what we see now in terms of pace. So you have a player that's lumbering up and down the court with 250-300 pounds on his backside, who starts at the worst possible position for transition defense. He's standing under the basket at the other end of the floor. He's not mobile enough to stop the outlet pass to a player that can run the court end to end. So it's an easy score. Watch how the Grizzlies play sometime. Now, they are the token team.
Speed and shooting are being emphasized these days, but size and strength still matter a lot. As I metioned before, you only need (at least) 3 guys to run back on defense to stop the break and none of them need be a 7 footer. The preferred number back is 5 but 4 with your big man joining the party a little late is not going to hurt the better defensive teams that much. Again, I am not talking about teams who are playing fast and loose but not winning anything.
This is not to say that post play is entirely dead. It's just not the seven-footers doing the posting up. And when you do, if the ball is dribbled more than 2 dribbles, the defense collapses and you're putting up a bad shot, and that's before they call defensive 3-seconds, or get you for backing down a player from 20-feet out. So there's no room to stay in the lane anymore. Dikembe Mutombo wouldn't be waiving his finger in today's NBA. Pay attention to the rules.
Teams who don't post up 7 footers usually means that team doesn't have a 7 footer who CAN effectively play in the low post. You saw the Spurs didn't hesitate to post Timmy this past season. If the Heat had had a 7 foot low post player, they would have posted him up.

The Lakers' big men were able to pass, shoot from the outside, and hit their foul shots. Bynum is the only one who couldn't and how many times did they make the Finals with Andrew Bynum lost for the playoffs? 2 out of 3 years?
Uh, no. Andrew was lost for the 2008 Finals only which the Lakers lost to the Celts. Know why? Because the Celts had more bigs. The 2 Finals in which Andrew played, we won 2 championships. And what are you talking about Andrew couldn't shoot from the outside and pass and shoot free throws? He was competent from 10 to 15 feet. His passing was acceptable but not on the level of Pau, and Andrew was a 70%+ free throw shooter.

You should stop listening to the so called experts who need something to write or talk about and start actually looking at what the legitimate contenders are doing. You may be too focused on the NBA also-rans who will be chasing their tails forever looking to the latest trend as a formula for winning a ring.

Miami, yeah, the small ball "kings", just signed Greg Oden. And I take back what I said about the GS Warriors bcause I forgot they boldly moved to acquire 7 foot Andrew Bogut who can shoot from the outside but is certainly not athletic, has little ballhandling skills, and in most respects is a "traditional" big. The Spurs will go with Tiago Splitter and Duncan, both traditional bigs.

I will pick the team with good bigs any day over the team with a bunch of fast "littles" who can shoot. The "littles" may win a few regular season games, but in a 7 game playoff series, they will get worn down and out by the bigger teams.
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Old September 4 2013, 02:17 AM   #100
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Re: 2013 NBA Offseason Thread...

Suns release Michael Beasley

Scary to think the Bull could've picked this guy #1 instead of Derek Rose.

On the subject of the Bulls, have they done anything other than take a few steps backwards this offseason?

They get Derek back, but have only lost secondary players.
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Old September 4 2013, 02:28 AM   #101
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Re: 2013 NBA Offseason Thread...

To be fair, getting Derek Rose back is a pretty big step forward provided all the players can play well together.
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Old September 4 2013, 10:24 PM   #102
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Re: 2013 NBA Offseason Thread...

Ar-Pharazon wrote: View Post
Beasley is a guy the Lakers almost traded for 2 seasons ago. We were giving up the Mavs' 1st pick and trying to foist DFish on Minny in a 3 team deal.

The guy is an idiot but he is only 24 and can score. We can use another small forward who can do that. If he clears waivers I wouldn't mind the Lakers signing him as long as it is no more than a 2 year deal with a team option in the 2nd year.
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Old September 4 2013, 11:44 PM   #103
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Re: 2013 NBA Offseason Thread...

Are the Lakers (without Phil Jackson) the kind of team that could get Beasley to modify his behavior?

Or would the media circus LA is only make it worse for him?
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Old September 5 2013, 09:05 PM   #104
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Re: 2013 NBA Offseason Thread...

Ar-Pharazon wrote: View Post
Are the Lakers (without Phil Jackson) the kind of team that could get Beasley to modify his behavior?

Or would the media circus LA is only make it worse for him?
I don't know the answer to your first question. But considering who our head coach is, I would say, no. But there is the Kobe factor and Pau Gasol, who both "might" make a difference. And even though he would be under a lot more media scrutiny in L.A. than anywhere but NYC, it is still the Lakers, which also might, and I do say MIGHT make a difference.

But the truth is, where we are now as a team, we can use even the knuckleheads of the league as long as they are talented.
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Old September 5 2013, 11:10 PM   #105
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Re: 2013 NBA Offseason Thread...

^ Some coaches or teams provide a good atmosphere that could help a guy like Beasley become a better person and get his personal life on track.

No doubt he's got a lot of talent, but when his personal behavior overshadows or affects his playing, it makes it hard for a team to take a chance on him.

I think Phil Jackson is/was one of the few coaches that could get through to a guy like that. I can't imagine LA without Phil has the right atmosphere, what with all the negativity we saw with the Howard departure. Add to that the media spotlight.

I wouldn't mind Beasley going to Chicago, but with the way the fanbase & media were capable of treating Derek Rose throughout the end of last season, I'm not sure it would be a good fit either.
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