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Old September 5 2013, 11:19 AM   #31
Seven of Five
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

R. Star wrote: View Post
Alliances? I liked this episode right up until the ending. One of the few episodes that went out of it's way to highlight the differences between the Maquis and Federation crews.
Totally agreed. The end of the episode played it far too safe, even if Janeway taking a stance was admirable (if naive). And then of course by The Swarm in season three, she had reversed her decision about protocol and decided to go through alien space.

Alliances would have been much better if it cemented Janeway's decision to start bending the rules to survive.
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Old September 5 2013, 01:39 PM   #32
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

R. Star wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
Season 2 is without doubt the best Voyager season and the best season of all Star Trek series.

Most of the episodes are excellent, the only episodes that isn't that good is "Threshold" and it is at least funny to watch if you imagine it as a nightmare Janeway had after eating too much of Neelix's food.

My favorite episodes are "Cold Fire", Persistence of Vision" and "Alliances".
Well, I think that's the first time I've ever heard that. Even from most who say Voyager is their favorite series. But whatever makes you happy.
yep I'll agree there, Voyager is my favorite and I'm always trying to defend it, but I definately think that season 1 and 2 were not the best. They have a few good episodes, but mostly the seasons were weak. Voyager didn't really hit it's stride until season 4

Cold Fire... just struck me as unfulfilling... how they handled that plot point from Caretaker about a possible way home. Of course we know the answer to "Will they get home?" is always "No!" but it was disappointing how they handled Suspheria. Though Tanis saying "When Voyager appears, people fear death and destruction." was funny. I wish they would've left this encounter more open ended, especially since Suspheria apparently existed only in thought or something. It would've been neat if Kes had somehow kept her powers instead of the reset button being pushed there with her.
I didn't really like that they found her so quick. They talked a lot about the female caretaker and I think tey should have given it a few more seasons, possibly even made it the series finale. And then she's a little girl with the voice of an 80 year old woman who smokes 5 packs a day. Really dissapointing. I found myself hoping that Kes would go with them and stay with Susperia

Persistence of Vision... I'd call that a fairly average episode. I really can't find much fault in it, though the Janeway British holonovel gets tiresome. I can't believe that was one of the first mini-arcs in Voyager. Other than that, the standard Jeri Taylor Janeway centered script. Though the shrinking doctor was funny.
Loved shrinking doc, and I kind of liked the novel. I was always wondering more about that story, was the girl seeing her mother, was the mother still alive. Though I think the holo novel was more interesting than this whole episode. It was kind of fun to see some peole's fantasies, like B'elanna wanting to have sex with Chuckles. I hated the ending though, ear shattering kes screaches and an alien who gives no reason for messing with the crew.

Alliances? I liked this episode right up until the ending. One of the few episodes that went out of it's way to highlight the differences between the Maquis and Federation crews. Janeway's reaction to negotiating with Culluh, while definitely not endearing, was kinda funny. Sure she shouldn't have to put up with his crap like that, but it was clear she was just looking for any excuse for that alliance to fail. Distasteful as it may have been, Janeway really would've been better off if she let the Trabe kill off the Kazon leadership. But Janeway's willing to sacrifice everyone before turning any part of her ship over to the enemy, and we get the pat ending of Janeway pontificating how they should stick true to Federation values no matter what, and never ally themselves with the bad guy. Which is funny when
I'm just not a fan of any Kazon episode really


and in regards to one of your spoilers....

she didn't give the hirogen the holotech to get them to stop attacking. They had already had a truce and the hirogen were already leaving. The hirogen had already picked apart all of voyager's systems and had a good idea of the workings of the holodeck. She gave them that tech to honor the hirogen leader that was killed.
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Old September 5 2013, 04:56 PM   #33
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

Lynx wrote: View Post
Season 2 is without doubt the best Voyager season and the best season of all Star Trek series.

Most of the episodes are excellent, the only episodes that isn't that good is "Threshold" and it is at least funny to watch if you imagine it as a nightmare Janeway had after eating too much of Neelix's food.

My favorite episodes are "Cold Fire", Persistence of Vision" and "Alliances".
The only episode that isn't that good is "Threshold"?

Season 2 contains the episode that informs me that I'm descended from space aliens. I'm not completely human.

Star Trek manages to achieve justification for the European genocide of indigenous Americans. Well done! Glad you enjoyed that piece of garbage so much!
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Old September 5 2013, 04:59 PM   #34
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

teya wrote: View Post
The only episode that isn't that good is "Threshold"?
Boo! Salamander babies would have been a great addition to the crew!
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Old September 5 2013, 05:26 PM   #35
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

teya wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
Season 2 is without doubt the best Voyager season and the best season of all Star Trek series.

Most of the episodes are excellent, the only episodes that isn't that good is "Threshold" and it is at least funny to watch if you imagine it as a nightmare Janeway had after eating too much of Neelix's food.

My favorite episodes are "Cold Fire", Persistence of Vision" and "Alliances".
The only episode that isn't that good is "Threshold"?

Season 2 contains the episode that informs me that I'm descended from space aliens. I'm not completely human.

Star Trek manages to achieve justification for the European genocide of indigenous Americans. Well done! Glad you enjoyed that piece of garbage so much!
Star Trek says that ALL humans...and everyone in the galaxy came from aliens.

and sorry, but how is being descended from aliens insulting? I don't like that episode either, but I don't get why being descended from aliens is insulting
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Old September 5 2013, 05:45 PM   #36
teya
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

KaraBear wrote: View Post
and sorry, but how is being descended from aliens insulting? I don't like that episode either, but I don't get why being descended from aliens is insulting
First Europeans, then the US Government used the belief that American Indians were not fully human as justification for genocide.

"Tattoo" posits that American Indians lacked speech (unlike other humans) and needed additional alien DNA in order to surivive and thrive.

In other words, we were the stupid humans. Too stupid to develop language without an injection of additional alien DNA.

ETA: This isn't even taking into account the idiocy of finding a tribe of RFA Indians in the Central American rainforest.

Don't see any other humans in Star Trek sporting forehead ridges...
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Old September 5 2013, 05:55 PM   #37
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

teya wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
and sorry, but how is being descended from aliens insulting? I don't like that episode either, but I don't get why being descended from aliens is insulting
First Europeans, then the US Government used the belief that American Indians were not fully human as justification for genocide.

"Tattoo" posits that American Indians lacked speech (unlike other humans) and needed additional alien DNA in order to surivive and thrive.

In other words, we were the stupid humans. Too stupid to develop language without an injection of additional alien DNA.

ETA: This isn't even taking into account the idiocy of finding a tribe of RFA Indians in the Central American rainforest.

Don't see any other humans in Star Trek sporting forehead ridges...
in all fairness they're talking about a fictional tribe, one tribe, not every native american. who didn't have forehead ridges either

the way I saw it, the aliens came and saw a species in a certain state of evolution and sped it up, that doesn't mean that speach and technology wouldn't have evolved anyway, they just came at the point before that.

star trek says we all came from aliens, I think that's pretty cool actually
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Old September 5 2013, 06:17 PM   #38
teya
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

KaraBear wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
and sorry, but how is being descended from aliens insulting? I don't like that episode either, but I don't get why being descended from aliens is insulting
First Europeans, then the US Government used the belief that American Indians were not fully human as justification for genocide.

"Tattoo" posits that American Indians lacked speech (unlike other humans) and needed additional alien DNA in order to surivive and thrive.

In other words, we were the stupid humans. Too stupid to develop language without an injection of additional alien DNA.

ETA: This isn't even taking into account the idiocy of finding a tribe of RFA Indians in the Central American rainforest.

Don't see any other humans in Star Trek sporting forehead ridges...
in all fairness they're talking about a fictional tribe, one tribe, not every native american. who didn't have forehead ridges either

the way I saw it, the aliens came and saw a species in a certain state of evolution and sped it up, that doesn't mean that speach and technology wouldn't have evolved anyway, they just came at the point before that.

star trek says we all came from aliens, I think that's pretty cool actually
What I bolded, that's the problem.

I'm a Homo sapiens, just like you.

We are not separate species.

They were also pretty vague about whether it was just Chakotay's tribe or all Native Americans (since they were showing 'em on the migration from Asia, and the history the alien provided was consistent with it being all of us).

Just the fact that they had to make up a freaking tribe was ridiculous. Janeway can be Irish. That's a good thing to be.

But Chakotay couldn't be from any existing tribe. No, that would be insulting, according to Jeri Taylor.

Insulting to whom? White people? Indians? Who exactly would be offended if Chakotay was a Mohawk or a Navajo or a Mayan?
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Old September 5 2013, 06:20 PM   #39
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

teya wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post

First Europeans, then the US Government used the belief that American Indians were not fully human as justification for genocide.

"Tattoo" posits that American Indians lacked speech (unlike other humans) and needed additional alien DNA in order to surivive and thrive.

In other words, we were the stupid humans. Too stupid to develop language without an injection of additional alien DNA.

ETA: This isn't even taking into account the idiocy of finding a tribe of RFA Indians in the Central American rainforest.

Don't see any other humans in Star Trek sporting forehead ridges...
in all fairness they're talking about a fictional tribe, one tribe, not every native american. who didn't have forehead ridges either

the way I saw it, the aliens came and saw a species in a certain state of evolution and sped it up, that doesn't mean that speach and technology wouldn't have evolved anyway, they just came at the point before that.

star trek says we all came from aliens, I think that's pretty cool actually
What I bolded, that's the problem.

I'm a Homo sapiens, just like you.

We are not separate species.
nobody is saying we're separate species, and nobody is referring to you, it's a fictional tribe

and sorry, but I still don't see why aliens speeding up the evolution is a problem. If they hadn't come around they would have evolved anyway. They just made it happen faster
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Old September 5 2013, 06:25 PM   #40
teya
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

KaraBear wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post

in all fairness they're talking about a fictional tribe, one tribe, not every native american. who didn't have forehead ridges either

the way I saw it, the aliens came and saw a species in a certain state of evolution and sped it up, that doesn't mean that speach and technology wouldn't have evolved anyway, they just came at the point before that.

star trek says we all came from aliens, I think that's pretty cool actually
What I bolded, that's the problem.

I'm a Homo sapiens, just like you.

We are not separate species.
nobody is saying we're separate species, and nobody is referring to you, it's a fictional tribe

and sorry, but I still don't see why aliens speeding up the evolution is a problem. If they hadn't come around they would have evolved anyway. They just made it happen faster
I added to my points above.

My views on this episode are pretty consistent with those of other Native Americans. Given that we're not represented as anything but stereotypes in most film & TV, we truly hoped for better from Star Trek. We were disappointed.
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Old September 5 2013, 06:44 PM   #41
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

teya wrote: View Post
Insulting to whom? White people? Indians? Who exactly would be offended if Chakotay was a Mohawk or a Navajo or a Mayan?
it would depend on how he was portrayed, but I can see how it could be offensive. If people are offended at him being from a fictional tribe, I bet they would definately be offended at him being from a real one...

lets say when he pulls out his medicine bundle, if everything in there isn't spot on 100% completely dead on accurate, if he was from a real tribe people would freak out about it
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Old September 5 2013, 06:45 PM   #42
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

"Cold Fire" - I thought it was unfortunate that Suspiria's name was the same as a rather successful 1977 Italian horror film. It kept making me think there was supposed to be some significance to it that I was missing, as I'd not seen the film itself. When I first saw "Cold Fire", I remembered the film being advertised.
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Old September 5 2013, 07:05 PM   #43
teya
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

KaraBear wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
Insulting to whom? White people? Indians? Who exactly would be offended if Chakotay was a Mohawk or a Navajo or a Mayan?
it would depend on how he was portrayed, but I can see how it could be offensive. If people are offended at him being from a fictional tribe, I bet they would definately be offended at him being from a real one...

lets say when he pulls out his medicine bundle, if everything in there isn't spot on 100% completely dead on accurate, if he was from a real tribe people would freak out about it
Let's say he doesn't have a "medicine bundle" to pull out. Since it's not an Indian thing, but a New Age white people who wanna be Indians thing.

This is the problem. Taylor went so overboard trying not to be offensive, that she created a stereotype that is, by nature of being a stereotype, offensive.

The Ecological Peaceful Indian. There's NO history for that. We were just as hard on the environment as the folks who followed us. And Peaceful? Really? The oldest continuous democracy on the planet is the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, which was founded so that the 6 nations didn't continue slaughtering each other. (For which, being from one of them, I am grateful... ).

Here's the thing: TPTB were relying on the actor cast to give them some sorta direction. But they cast an actor who doesn't know a thing about his own heritage (not uncommon among Mexican Americans born in the States). So, he suggested Mayan, thinking they'd do some research.

And Jeri Taylor did. She went to Maya.net & copied the first page into the series bible (which appears word-for-word plagiarized in "Pathways"). That's a creation myth. That's it for the research.

What is particularly sad (yet typical of the blinders the majority culture has on when they look at us) is that TPTB had informants all around them. There's a huge expatriate Mayan population in Los Angeles. They are nannies, and cleaning ladies, and gardeners, as well as doctors, lawyers, teachers & scientists. When I was writing fanfic, I'd get stories from my facialist once a month, and that gave me some background into the culture as it stands in the 21st century--and a starting point for how that culture would evolve into the 24th.

That there was nothing but what she made up in her head showed me that, despite the fact that they worked on a franchise that was supposed to be enlightened, TPTB were no different than most very well-off Americans: they don't talk to the hired help.
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Old September 5 2013, 07:16 PM   #44
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

You know, "Tattoo" is one of those episodes I just never got around to seeing (though I've got it on VHS somewhere). I think I can live with that.
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Old September 5 2013, 07:34 PM   #45
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

DonIago wrote: View Post
You know, "Tattoo" is one of those episodes I just never got around to seeing (though I've got it on VHS somewhere). I think I can live with that.
The sad thing is, the B-story is the best Kes story ever. She's downright devious, in a fun way, and the interaction between her and the Doctor is terrific.

It's too bad they had to include it in what's easily my least-favorite episode of Star Trek ever.
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