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Old September 4 2013, 09:02 PM   #16
KaraBear
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

Melakon wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
. . .Neelix. . .decides he's an expert journalist and pokes and prods everywhere in pursuit of HIS story, even when he's asked not to. Not only does he repeatedly bother everyone who are doing some fairly important stuff, but he then decides he has the right to search people's quarters, falsify identifications, then smears a good man's name just to make a headline. . .
He does everything Lois Lane has done in the entire history of Superman.
isn't that generally what most reporters do? whatever they can to get their story?

and about "smearing" tom's name....that's what Janeway and tuvok wanted. Remember Tom was purposely acting like a jerk to make it believable that he was leaving. Neelix, like everyone else, believed it like they wanted
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Old September 4 2013, 09:09 PM   #17
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

In the context of extricating the crew from the Vidian attack, it was. The term is not so inflexible that it must apply to the whole episode. Like I said, it is as much a reset as Visionary.

Eta: if the consequences of the episode were inplace fully, the series should have ended, just as which should have happened in Caus and Effect.
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Old September 4 2013, 09:09 PM   #18
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

Whether or not it's a reset button, the rapid clean-up of the ship after the events of "Deadlock" was disappointing.
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Old September 4 2013, 09:16 PM   #19
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
In the context of extricating the crew from the Vidian attack, it was. The term is not so inflexible that it must apply to the whole episode. Like I said, it is as much a reset as Visionary.

Eta: if the consequences of the episode were inplace fully, the series should have ended, just as which should have happened in Caus and Effect.
I'm not seeing the difference. One Voyager blew itself up taking the Vidian ship with it. That's what makes it a reset?
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Old September 4 2013, 09:33 PM   #20
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

KaraBear wrote: View Post
Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
In the context of extricating the crew from the Vidian attack, it was. The term is not so inflexible that it must apply to the whole episode. Like I said, it is as much a reset as Visionary.

Eta: if the consequences of the episode were inplace fully, the series should have ended, just as which should have happened in Caus and Effect.
I'm not seeing the difference. One Voyager blew itself up taking the Vidian ship with it. That's what makes it a reset?
Duplicate Voyager.
Destroy Voyager.
Leave premise unchanged.

It's a twist on the reset, but special pleading doesn't make it not a reset.
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Old September 4 2013, 09:46 PM   #21
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

KaraBear wrote: View Post
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Let's just replace the word "reset" with some random technobabble. Will that make everyone happy? LOL. Honestly, whether or not what happened is a "reset" is completely irrelevant to my feelings on what happened. So if you say it's not a "reset," Kara, that's perfectly fine by me.

By the way, I finished watching "Basics, Part II" on my lunch break. I thought the struggles on the planet (the cavemen, the monster of the week, the baby) were all kind of pointless, except for showing how awesome Janeway is in survival mode. But I loved the scenes of the Voyager landing and the music gave me warm and fuzzies. I thought Darwin had a decent death scene, but I wish they kept him around because I found him interesting. I'd say Part I was far and away a better episode.
So since at the end of the episode they're all back on Voyager as if nothing happened, this is a reset episode too?
Here's the difference for me. At the end of "Basics, Part II," the crew got their ship back, the bad guys had to limp away, Seska was killed, the ship didn't have an unusal amount of damage and they move on. The only thing that remains is Chakotay's baby may have survived, and perhaps that will come up in a future episode, or perhaps not. We shall see. But based on the ending, I have no expectations for immediate continuity into the next episode.

At the end of "Deadlock" however, the ship is in shambles, the deck 15 breach had widened to encompass a part of deck 14, 632 micro-fractures are all over the hull, all primary systems are offline, the antimatter levels are at 18 percent and continuing to fall, the warp coils in both nacelles are fused and inoperative, and it's going to take them 3 days just to be able to return to the bridge. Sure repairs were "underway," but there is no way they could warp away immediately, they're very close to Vidiian space and the ship is effectively disabled. Again, they're very close to Vidiian space! So my expectations were that the next episode would deal with the dilemma of still trying to make a dent in the excessive repair list they're facing while trying to avoid the Vidiians, or perhaps encountering the Vidiians and running into some danger there, being forced to negotiate for some parts they need to make repairs, or something to pick up where they left off. There was potential for that at least. Instead, in the next episode they've conveniently gone beyond Vidiian space and the ship is already 100% tip top. So that's not a "reset" based on your definition (and that's fine, just forget the word "reset"), but it was just disappointing to me based on what the writers could have done based on where they were at the end of "Deadlock." There was so much potential for a really good continuation there. That's the difference for me. And as I have acknowledged, this happens in every Trek. I'm just expressing the simple disappointment I felt based on the potential in this case that was wasted in my view. I hope that at least clears up what was going through my head when I made my original post.
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Old September 4 2013, 09:53 PM   #22
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

Season 2 is without doubt the best Voyager season and the best season of all Star Trek series.

Most of the episodes are excellent, the only episodes that isn't that good is "Threshold" and it is at least funny to watch if you imagine it as a nightmare Janeway had after eating too much of Neelix's food.

My favorite episodes are "Cold Fire", Persistence of Vision" and "Alliances".
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Old September 4 2013, 10:15 PM   #23
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

KaraBear wrote: View Post

and about "smearing" tom's name....that's what Janeway and tuvok wanted. Remember Tom was purposely acting like a jerk to make it believable that he was leaving. Neelix, like everyone else, believed it like they wanted
There's a huge moral difference between someone acting like a screw up and calling them a traitor. Mind you his "evidence" of that was -after- he broke into his quarters and used someone else's authorization to hack into Tom's computer.

Only after that did Janeway and Tuvok say they could use that to possibly flush out the killer. Mind you this was after they asked Neelix to step out of it. No... he was completely unselfish by putting his own headline ahead of the ship's security.
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Old September 4 2013, 10:26 PM   #24
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

Lynx wrote: View Post
Season 2 is without doubt the best Voyager season and the best season of all Star Trek series.
I feel like we should have a debate about "without doubt" now since we spent way too much time on "reset." LOL
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Old September 4 2013, 10:36 PM   #25
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

Lynx wrote: View Post
Season 2 is without doubt the best Voyager season and the best season of all Star Trek series.
Hmm. I don't think I could call any of VOY's seasons the best of all Star Trek, though it has great nostalgia value for me as me and my friend watched it religiously back in the day.

I find the first three seasons of VOY very hit and miss. I didn't mind the first one so much as it was still new back then, and it seemed like the producers were at least trying.

Seasons four onwards brought an improvement, making the show just somewhat hit and miss.
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Old September 4 2013, 10:36 PM   #26
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

I have plenty of doubts myself. Doubts with names like "Elogium", "Twisted", "Innocence", "Parturition"...
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Old September 4 2013, 10:48 PM   #27
R. Star
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

Lynx wrote: View Post
Season 2 is without doubt the best Voyager season and the best season of all Star Trek series.

Most of the episodes are excellent, the only episodes that isn't that good is "Threshold" and it is at least funny to watch if you imagine it as a nightmare Janeway had after eating too much of Neelix's food.

My favorite episodes are "Cold Fire", Persistence of Vision" and "Alliances".
Well, I think that's the first time I've ever heard that. Even from most who say Voyager is their favorite series. But whatever makes you happy.

Cold Fire... just struck me as unfulfilling... how they handled that plot point from Caretaker about a possible way home. Of course we know the answer to "Will they get home?" is always "No!" but it was disappointing how they handled Suspheria. Though Tanis saying "When Voyager appears, people fear death and destruction." was funny. I wish they would've left this encounter more open ended, especially since Suspheria apparently existed only in thought or something. It would've been neat if Kes had somehow kept her powers instead of the reset button being pushed there with her.

Persistence of Vision... I'd call that a fairly average episode. I really can't find much fault in it, though the Janeway British holonovel gets tiresome. I can't believe that was one of the first mini-arcs in Voyager. Other than that, the standard Jeri Taylor Janeway centered script. Though the shrinking doctor was funny.

Alliances? I liked this episode right up until the ending. One of the few episodes that went out of it's way to highlight the differences between the Maquis and Federation crews. Janeway's reaction to negotiating with Culluh, while definitely not endearing, was kinda funny. Sure she shouldn't have to put up with his crap like that, but it was clear she was just looking for any excuse for that alliance to fail. Distasteful as it may have been, Janeway really would've been better off if she let the Trabe kill off the Kazon leadership. But Janeway's willing to sacrifice everyone before turning any part of her ship over to the enemy, and we get the pat ending of Janeway pontificating how they should stick true to Federation values no matter what, and never ally themselves with the bad guy. Which is funny when
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Old September 4 2013, 10:51 PM   #28
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

I just remembered this...which episode had all of the different Kazon Majes being introduced? There was fanfare and applause, but no audience. I was thinking...where is this cheering and applause coming from? LOL.
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Old September 4 2013, 11:01 PM   #29
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

At the end of "Deadlock" however, the ship is in shambles, the deck 15 breach had widened to encompass a part of deck 14, 632 micro-fractures are all over the hull, all primary systems are offline, the antimatter levels are at 18 percent and continuing to fall, the warp coils in both nacelles are fused and inoperative, and it's going to take them 3 days*just to be able to return to the bridge.*Sure repairs were "underway," but there is no way they could warp away immediately, they're very close to Vidiian space and the ship is effectively disabled. Again, they're very close to Vidiian space! So my expectations were that the next episode would deal with the dilemma of still trying to make a dent in the excessive repair list they're facing while trying to avoid the Vidiians, or perhaps encountering the Vidiians and running into some danger there, being forced to negotiate for some parts they need to make repairs, or*something*to pick up where they left off. There was potential for that at least. Instead, in the next episode they've conveniently gone beyond Vidiian space and the ship is already 100% tip top. So that's not a "reset" based on your definition (and that's fine, just forget the word "reset"), but it was just disappointing to me based on what the writers could have done based on where they were at the end of "Deadlock." There was so much potential for a really good continuation there. That's the difference for me. And as I have acknowledged, this happens in every Trek. I'm just expressing the simple disappointment I felt based on the potential in this case that was wasted in my view. I hope that at least clears up what was going through my head when I made my original post.
I'm not sure how specific this is to this one episode rather than emblematic of the series. For what it's worth, the episode left me with a notion about how Janeway started to see the ship as a community, and how much individual suffering she would accept in order to get everyone home. It's different from the notion in TNG that everyone is prepared to sacrifice themselves in the moment. Sorry if this seems abstract, but choosing one Voyager rather than fighting to the last allowed the preservation of her goals toward that community. I'm not sure that she stayed true thereto, as Seven effectively called her out when her I'm implants started to fail.
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Old September 4 2013, 11:42 PM   #30
R. Star
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Re: Thoughts on Season 2

dub wrote: View Post
I just remembered this...which episode had all of the different Kazon Majes being introduced? There was fanfare and applause, but no audience. I was thinking...where is this cheering and applause coming from? LOL.
Maneuvers has some other majes, but Alliances has that cheesy scene with the guy introducing them all.
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