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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old September 3 2013, 09:57 PM   #16
Leto_II
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

And at that point in time, there was really no reason for Johnson or anyone else involved in the production of Star Trek IV (TNG was still in utero) to think that the Transwarp experiment of ST III would be completely jettisoned between the release of The Voyage Home and The Final Frontier by the TNG writing staff.

When Johnson was granted access to the ST IV soundstages (the Enterprise-A bridge sets had not yet been struck), he stuck as closely as he possibly could to what had already been established onscreen, and to the Okudagram graphics on the bridge consoles, which was the only proper thing to do, given what he was attempting to produce.

What's surprising is that the book has aged so well in the decades since its publication, even considering the continuity and dating-changes later official sources brought to the franchise.
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Old September 3 2013, 10:22 PM   #17
Nebusj
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

Timo wrote: View Post
Because it's normal for big ships to be refitted when they're sufficiently old or when their primary tasks are changed?
But is it, when the E-nil is our only onscreen example of such an extensive refit?
As far as I know there's only one other example of a regular-duty ship being seen across multiple decades of service, and that's the Enterprise-D from the alternate ``All Good Things'' future ... which, of course, was prominently refitted.

Yeah, we see Excelsiors and Grissoms in Next Generation that don't look too different from what they did in the movie era, but when we get interior shots they look like redressed versions of a Galaxy-class battle bridge at least. If (if!) they're three-quarters of a century old, they're not running the same gear they were when Genesis and Transwarp Drive were going concerns.
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Old September 3 2013, 11:17 PM   #18
Leto_II
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

True, and about the only times we do see a TNG-era starship bridge/interior that remotely resembles its movie-era counterpart, it's aboard a vessel like the Stargazer or a literally-time-displaced ship like the USS Bozeman. Every other time, such interiors tend to conform to 24th Century design aesthetics.
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Old September 4 2013, 12:33 AM   #19
Gojira
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
I've always thought Starfleet ships were somewhat modular. Swap out the sensor suite / warp core / deflector, plug in the new type and off you go. Thus really old space frames like The Excelsior remain viable and in service into the TNG era.

Add to this, every light year explored brings a huge volume of space into play - more and more ships are required all the time. Older models are perfect for run of the mill operations, freeing state of the art ships up for front line exploration.

That is the way I have always seen it too.
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Old September 4 2013, 10:50 AM   #20
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

Because this is SciFi. Is your question serious, or are you joking?
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Old September 4 2013, 11:51 AM   #21
Mario de Monti
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

wjaspers wrote: View Post
Because this is SciFi. Is your question serious, or are you joking?
I believe that with this attitide, your answer could be given to a large percentage of the questions here at the TrekBBS!! Im sure most of us (including the OP) is aware of the fact, that "it is SciFi" (see his post #1). The intent of this thread was (correct me if Im wrong anyone) to find an in-universe explanation, as to why Starfleet would go to such trouble to completely rework the Enterprise instead of just building a new one.

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Old September 4 2013, 05:59 PM   #22
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
The intent of this thread was (correct me if Im wrong anyone) to find an in-universe explanation, as to why Starfleet would go to such trouble to completely rework the Enterprise instead of just building a new one.
Okay, an in universe explanation. Here's a possible one, I remembered reading and got the novel. It's from "The Great Starship Race" by Diane Carey. At the very end of the novel the Enterprise had taken very heavy damage and was due for repairs. This quote is Kirk talking to Spock about the repairs:

"And I don't want anything replaced that isn't in pieces. The Enterprise just showed us how tough she is. Her spine, frame assemble and exostructure turned out to be a lot stronger than we thought. Even stronger than her designers thought. I don't want any of that strength repaired out of her."

Maybe Kirk, and I assume Scotty would agree, wanted to keep as much of the original Enterprise as possible and simply upgrade instead of replace the entire ship with a new one.
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Old September 4 2013, 06:13 PM   #23
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

jpv2000 wrote: View Post
Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
The intent of this thread was (correct me if Im wrong anyone) to find an in-universe explanation, as to why Starfleet would go to such trouble to completely rework the Enterprise instead of just building a new one.
Okay, an in universe explanation. Here's a possible one, I remembered reading and got the novel. It's from "The Great Starship Race" by Diane Carey. At the very end of the novel the Enterprise had taken very heavy damage and was due for repairs. This quote is Kirk talking to Spock about the repairs:

"And I don't want anything replaced that isn't in pieces. The Enterprise just showed us how tough she is. Her spine, frame assemble and exostructure turned out to be a lot stronger than we thought. Even stronger than her designers thought. I don't want any of that strength repaired out of her."

Maybe Kirk, and I assume Scotty would agree, wanted to keep as much of the original Enterprise as possible and simply upgrade instead of replace the entire ship with a new one.
Except, Decker tells Kirk that the refit is an almost totally new ship. So different in fact that Kirk has trouble finding he way around it, doesn't know how the new engines and weapons work, and there's hardly anyone rated on the design according to Decker.
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Old September 4 2013, 10:05 PM   #24
Leto_II
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

It's pretty clear from the TMP film, novelization, and The Lost Years that Kirk was rather powerless to do much of anything about such a drastic redesign of the Enterprise following its return from the five-year mission -- Starfleet was hell-bent upon the refit program, and Kirk suddenly became far too valuable a commodity as a returning hero and as a recently-promoted Admiral (the new public "face" of Starfleet) to have any real impact against the decision.

He certainly hoped to regain a say in the proceedings -- he only accepted the promotion to the Admiralty on a provisional basis after nearly tendering his resignation, but soon found himself too embroiled in other duties as Chief of Starfleet Operations (and roving diplomatic troubleshooter) to involve himself in the refit process.

Plus, Decker had already been promoted and was overseeing the entire program by this point, and it basically took the intervention of Admiral Nogura himself years later to finally get Kirk his old command back (albeit much too late to prevent the refit).
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Old September 4 2013, 10:43 PM   #25
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

Leto_II wrote: View Post
Plus, Decker had already been promoted and was overseeing the entire program by this point, and it basically took the intervention of Admiral Nogura himself years later to finally get Kirk his old command back (albeit much too late to prevent the refit).
It's not entirely clear when Decker's promotion happened. What we know is that he was placed in charge of the refit after a four-year tour on USS Boston (per TMP and Phase II character notes) as executive officer. Christopher's novel A Forgotten History suggests that Decker's promotion happened during the refit rather than before it because Kirk thought he would be the best choice as the new Enterprise captain due to the enormous effort he was putting into the refit.

Other sources have suggested he was promoted to captain first and assigned to Enterprise at Kirk's urging because the latter wanted to give his career a boost. The exact nature of the relationship between Decker and Kirk isn't clear. Based on their interactions in TMP, we can reasonably conclude that they were fairly close (I'm basing this on each using the other's first name, something previously done only by Spock and McCoy) prior to Kirk booting Decker from the captain's chair.

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Old September 5 2013, 12:42 AM   #26
jpv2000
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
jpv2000 wrote: View Post
Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
The intent of this thread was (correct me if Im wrong anyone) to find an in-universe explanation, as to why Starfleet would go to such trouble to completely rework the Enterprise instead of just building a new one.
Okay, an in universe explanation. Here's a possible one, I remembered reading and got the novel. It's from "The Great Starship Race" by Diane Carey. At the very end of the novel the Enterprise had taken very heavy damage and was due for repairs. This quote is Kirk talking to Spock about the repairs:

"And I don't want anything replaced that isn't in pieces. The Enterprise just showed us how tough she is. Her spine, frame assemble and exostructure turned out to be a lot stronger than we thought. Even stronger than her designers thought. I don't want any of that strength repaired out of her."

Maybe Kirk, and I assume Scotty would agree, wanted to keep as much of the original Enterprise as possible and simply upgrade instead of replace the entire ship with a new one.
Except, Decker tells Kirk that the refit is an almost totally new ship. So different in fact that Kirk has trouble finding he way around it, doesn't know how the new engines and weapons work, and there's hardly anyone rated on the design according to Decker.
I knew all that, but I meant maybe he pushed for a refit and not a totally new ship. Like hang on to all the basic skeleton that was possible to mount the new stuff on.

I'm sure he made other suggestions, that he assumed were followed but were not, like the phasers being powered by the warp engines.
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Old September 5 2013, 01:06 AM   #27
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

jpv2000 wrote: View Post
I'm sure he made other suggestions, that he assumed were followed but were not, like the phasers being powered by the warp engines.
I'm not sure what this means. Are you saying that the idea for increasing phaser intensity by routing them through the warp drive was Kirk's idea? If so, why wouldn't he have thought about that while the Enterprise was flying through the wormhole? Decker had to explain to him that the phasers wouldn't work in the event of engine imbalance.

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Old September 5 2013, 03:42 AM   #28
Leto_II
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

Sran wrote: View Post
Leto_II wrote: View Post
Plus, Decker had already been promoted and was overseeing the entire program by this point, and it basically took the intervention of Admiral Nogura himself years later to finally get Kirk his old command back (albeit much too late to prevent the refit).
It's not entirely clear when Decker's promotion happened. What we know is that he was placed in charge of the refit after a four-year tour on USS Boston (per TMP and Phase II character notes) as executive officer. Christopher's novel A Forgotten History suggests that Decker's promotion happened during the refit rather than before it because Kirk thought he would be the best choice as the new Enterprise captain due to the enormous effort he was putting into the refit.

Other sources have suggested he was promoted to captain first and assigned to Enterprise at Kirk's urging because the latter wanted to give his career a boost. The exact nature of the relationship between Decker and Kirk isn't clear. Based on their interactions in TMP, we can reasonably conclude that they were fairly close (I'm basing this on each using the other's first name, something previously done only by Spock and McCoy) prior to Kirk booting Decker from the captain's chair.
Christopher's novel probably comes the closest to synchronicity with other sources; it's mentioned in The Lost Years (during the post-docking festivities) that Decker's promotion to the captaincy was more or less imminent (Kirk having sponsored him), which would suggest that it formally went through around the time the refit was underway, if not immediately beforehand.
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Old September 5 2013, 06:49 AM   #29
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

Building a starship constitutes a significant investment. It makes sense that you;d want to use that investment for as long as possible, adding in more advanced technology as it becomes available. The military today does the same thing with the Abrams tank. It's had more powerful engines, better computer targeting facilities etc put in to make it better. Doesn't it make sense that they'd do the same with a starship?
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Old September 5 2013, 06:48 PM   #30
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

Sran wrote: View Post
jpv2000 wrote: View Post
I'm sure he made other suggestions, that he assumed were followed but were not, like the phasers being powered by the warp engines.
I'm not sure what this means. Are you saying that the idea for increasing phaser intensity by routing them through the warp drive was Kirk's idea? If so, why wouldn't he have thought about that while the Enterprise was flying through the wormhole? Decker had to explain to him that the phasers wouldn't work in the event of engine imbalance.
No, the exact opposite actually.

In the novel by GR, once Decker explained why he countermanded Kirk's phaser order. Kirk was shocked since when he had seen that upgrade as an Admiral he had explained the many times a starship would need phasers when the warp drive might be down. And recommended they scrap the idea. He had assumed they would follow his recommendation.

He couldn't believe that the designers had ignored his opinion and installed it anyway.
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