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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old August 30 2013, 07:22 PM   #16
Lonemagpie
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Re: The Borg in Assimilation2

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
Which leads me to wonder if there's a Skaro in the Star Trek universe.
Er... Nobody's noticed, that I can remember, but the Split Infinite in IFM is referred to as being located at Delta Five, Gamma Zeta Alpha - or to put it another way, D5 Gamma Zed Alpha, the Movellan co-ordinates for Skaro in Destiny Of The Daleks, and there is rubble from a destroyed system of at least twelve planets - Skaro is the twelfth planet in its system, according to the Hartnell era....

Gee, is *that* what the Hand of Omega did? No wonder they bloody hid it!

Of course it could all just be one big coincidence..
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Old September 4 2013, 04:43 PM   #17
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Re: The Borg in Assimilation2

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For one, the Cybermen don't rank as a higher threat in my eyes as the Borg. Indeed, they lose the Cyber-Wars against humanity in the Doctor Who continuity.
And yet we know from Nightmare in Silver that the Cybermen grew to be a significant enough threat that an entire galaxy had to be destroyed to stop them.

As for the Borg Queen not existing in this time period, I'm sure she implies in First Contact that she knew Picard when he was Locutus.
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Old September 4 2013, 04:47 PM   #18
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Re: The Borg in Assimilation2

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The story suggests that the universes are merging early on (issues 3 and 4). However, the story then goes in a different direction and suggests that they're two wholly separate universes; the Cybermen's plan doesn't make sense otherwise.
The Cybermen's goal is to make themselves stronger, which they think they can do by first allying with, and then subjugating the Borg. How do the two universes being separate or merged affect this?
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Old September 4 2013, 04:55 PM   #19
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Re: The Borg in Assimilation2

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^I wouldn't expect a Star Trek/Doctor Who crossover to be in continuity with either series, so I don't see why that would be a consideration.
Because Star Trek exists as fiction in the Doctor's universe? A fair point, I grant, but there are other precedents for this kind of thing in past crossover fiction. For example, DC Comics characters exist as fiction in the Marvel Comics reality, but that hasn't stopped multiple stories where heroes from both universes meet one another. Heck, according to some writers, aspects of Trek exist as fiction in its own universe, via the writings of Benny Russell!
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Old September 4 2013, 05:55 PM   #20
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Re: The Borg in Assimilation2

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^I wouldn't expect a Star Trek/Doctor Who crossover to be in continuity with either series, so I don't see why that would be a consideration.
Because Star Trek exists as fiction in the Doctor's universe?
Also because they have fundamentally different laws of nature, histories, alien races and planets, and storytelling sensibilities. As a rule, different science fiction universes don't go together because too many fundamentals of the worldbuilding just aren't compatible. You'd be hard-pressed to find any two SF universes that could genuinely fit in the same reality; usually any crossover attempts require cheating by ignoring a lot of mutual inconsistencies, and thus don't truly fit well into either universe. (We talked about that some in this thread.) That's particularly the case here, since ST has usually tried to be a relatively grounded and naturalistic universe with a strong continuity (although it hasn't always lived up to that) whereas DW has always been pure fantasy without a trace of interest in realism and a casual approach to continuity at best.


For example, DC Comics characters exist as fiction in the Marvel Comics reality, but that hasn't stopped multiple stories where heroes from both universes meet one another.
But again, you're dealing with a lower standard of realism there. I mean, in '60s and '70s Marvel Comics, Lee and Kirby and the other creators often wrote themselves into the comics as comic-book writers telling stories about the superheroes. The fourth wall barely existed. Star Trek has never been -- and, to me, should absolutely never be -- that fanciful.


Heck, according to some writers, aspects of Trek exist as fiction in its own universe, via the writings of Benny Russell!
And I've never understood why anyone would think Benny Russell actually existed, rather than simply being an illusion created in Sisko's mind. I mean, the characters that surrounded Benny were too close a parallel to the people in Sisko's life, not only playing similar roles but often having similar names.

At most, the episode was metatextual, trying to challenge our assumptions and make us wonder if maybe DS9 was the illusion rather than the reality, Tommy Westphall-style. Like that Buffy episode where she was told she'd been in an asylum and hallucinated all the vampire-slaying, and it was left a little unclear whether that might actually be true. But you can't have it both ways. If you accept the Trek universe as real, then Benny Russell wasn't. If you accept Benny as real, then the Trek universe isn't.
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Old September 12 2013, 06:46 PM   #21
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Re: The Borg in Assimilation2

Being an avid fan of both Who and Trek, I personally feel that I can't just simply disregard this story. But neither can I ignore its flaws, which is why I seek ways by which to rationalize some of the odd things that happen. Namely, precisely how the two universes cross over. Do they merge to form a new hybrid reality, or is there a "bridge" between the two? And what happens at the end - are they still intertwined or what? The whole idea is too intriguing to just forget about, IMO.
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Old September 12 2013, 07:05 PM   #22
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Re: The Borg in Assimilation2

I don't understand how accepting that a work of fiction is, in fact, fictional constitutes "disregarding" it. All stories are equally unreal. So it doesn't diminish one story if it's not part of the same continuity as a different story. Sure, it makes it speculative and hypothetical compared to the other stories in the series -- an "imaginary story" in DC Comics parlance -- but the "real" stories are themselves speculative and hypothetical compared to reality, so what difference does it really make? They're all just things that might have been; some of them are simply built around different "mights" than others. (As Alan Moore wrote, "This is an imaginary story -- aren't they all?")
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Old September 23 2013, 08:55 PM   #23
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Re: The Borg in Assimilation2

As a big Doctor Who fan I've got to say no, it didn't sit well with me.

Forgetting Nightmare of Silver, where technology has reached a point where even humans can blow up galaxies, the Cybermen aren't a huge threat to the galaxy. They were never meant to be, with their sole goal in life being survival.

As threats go the Cybermen should have been on a technological level with the main alpha quadrant powers, but with far fewer numbers.

The Daleks on the other hand would be a Borg level threat.
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Old September 24 2013, 01:06 AM   #24
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Re: The Borg in Assimilation2

^When they first announced the crossover I was really hoping that they would use the Daleks. I was kind of disappointed when they said it was the Cybermen. I like the Cybermen, and I can see why they would pair them up with the Borg, but I still would have been more interested it if was the Daleks.
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Old September 24 2013, 01:32 AM   #25
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Re: The Borg in Assimilation2

JD wrote: View Post
^When they first announced the crossover I was really hoping that they would use the Daleks. I was kind of disappointed when they said it was the Cybermen. I like the Cybermen, and I can see why they would pair them up with the Borg, but I still would have been more interested it if was the Daleks.
IDW didn't license the rights to the Daleks. Plus, the Daleks add another chair to the approvals process table -- the Nation estate. Even if IDW had the rights to the Daleks, using the Daleks would have complicated the approvals process on this, which already went through two different studios.
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Old September 24 2013, 03:11 AM   #26
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Re: The Borg in Assimilation2

Just imagine how complicated the approval process would have been if it featured Daleks and the Abramsverse.
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Old September 24 2013, 12:42 PM   #27
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Re: The Borg in Assimilation2

The Daleks would have completely wiped the Borg out, of course.
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Old September 24 2013, 01:40 PM   #28
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Re: The Borg in Assimilation2

The big problem with having the Cybes in it for me is that they're too similar to the Borg - they should have had a distinctive DW element that was a contrast to the Borg. Or at least go a lot deeper into deconstructing the differences between the two.

Ah, fuck it, y'all know I'd have had the Delgado Master in it...
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Old September 24 2013, 01:40 PM   #29
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Re: The Borg in Assimilation2

Andrew_Kearley wrote: View Post
The Daleks would have completely wiped the Borg out, of course.
That doesn't seem likely. The Daleks pretty much have just one strategy -- zap everything -- and Borg generally adapt to weapons fire after 2-3 shots at most. I envision the Daleks futilely blasting away and screaming as the Borg close in on them -- and assimilate the Daleks. And then everyone's in trouble.

"As-sim-i-late! As-sim-i-late!"
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Old September 24 2013, 02:28 PM   #30
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Re: The Borg in Assimilation2

Christopher wrote: View Post
Andrew_Kearley wrote: View Post
The Daleks would have completely wiped the Borg out, of course.
That doesn't seem likely. The Daleks pretty much have just one strategy -- zap everything -- and Borg generally adapt to weapons fire after 2-3 shots at most. I envision the Daleks futilely blasting away and screaming as the Borg close in on them -- and assimilate the Daleks. And then everyone's in trouble.

"As-sim-i-late! As-sim-i-late!"
I'm not sure how the Borg nanotubules would reach a Dalek mutant inside its travel machine.

The Borg control one part of the Delta Quadrant. The Dalek Empire spans an entire galaxy. (Not Mutter's Spiral, obviously.) The Daleks win on sheer numbers.
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