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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Revelation and Dust.
Outstanding 29 25.44%
Above Average 45 39.47%
Average 26 22.81%
Below Average 8 7.02%
Poor 6 5.26%
Voters: 114. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 3 2013, 07:38 PM   #121
DavetheAvatar
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

VDCNI wrote: View Post
Maybe - as I mentioned in my comments the twist at the end with who shows up on DS9 makes the Kira story a little more vital in terms of the overall storyline but that won't change the fact I didn't it find it that interesting and although not badly written it was very bland and there are many better books out there if you want to read about resistance movements and the like. With RBOE I thought the story was still interesting and well told despite what was done to Sisko so it isn't quite the same thing.
This pretty much sums up my feelings on the Kira story. The ending was a real surprise, but that doesn't change the fact I was always slightly disappointed when the story jumped back to her during the rest of the book.

It wasn't badly written, I was just struggling to care what happened to these people I would never see again.

Nan Bacco's death was the opposite. I saw where it was all going from the start and yet I was still shocked by the moment when it came. I have only started reading the Star Trek novels in the last year or so, so I read a lot involving her in a short space of time. Made it sting all the more, having just grown so attached. Definitely a character I will miss.

I've always been a fan of books that follow a series rather than one off stories, cannot wait to see where this is all headed. I am still curious what "The Fall" refers to.
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Old September 3 2013, 08:15 PM   #122
Ronald Held
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

It seems tedious and mostly to set up the following books. The exception would be Bacco's death and the relevation on the final story page.
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Old September 3 2013, 09:58 PM   #123
Sci
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

RTOlson wrote: View Post
First, I should just note that I used the spoiler tag earlier in the thread because the book release was still rolling. I felt I wanted to give it a little time before diving into the big event in the novel, but the spoiler warning in the thread title should make things pretty clear.

Now, as to who may have done it:


RPJOB wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
RPJOB wrote: View Post
Bacco seems to have collected on the bad karma she's been collecting since she turned a blind eye to the coup by Picard and the others and the murder of Min Zife. I, for one, am glad to see that payback.
So she deserved to die? Christ, man. No one deserves that. And the Federation certainly didn't deserve the trauma of seeing its president assassinated.
Apparently you have no problem with the Federation President being secretly removed from office by the military and then later assassinated, as long as the people don't find out about it.
I never said or implied that, and I resent you putting words in my mouth.

Did she deserve to die? Not necessarily.
Wrong. She did not deserve to die. Period. No qualifications. The death penalty is nothing more than state-mandated murder.

Did David Marcus deserve to die?
No.

I would have preferred to see the entire cabal, including Bacco, brought to trial but for various reasons the authors have decided not to do it that way. The price still had to be paid and she paid with her life.
Of course, the problem is that there's no indication, no thematic link in the text, whatsoever, to her actions vis a vis Zife. She died for what, so far as we know, is a completely unrelated reason.
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Old September 4 2013, 06:35 AM   #124
RTOlson
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci wrote: View Post
RTOlson wrote: View Post
Now, as to who may have done it:

Now, as to seeking justice for the removal of President Zife, the process was ugly but that seemed to be the intent — as we seek a more perfect union, we often have to face demons of our own creation. What you're advocating, in part, was discussed by the characters in the several novels that addressed the issue and was reluctantly dismissed for the key reason it was nearly universally agreed that the Klingons would wage a ruinous, honor-fueled war of vengeance with the Federation, especially because the Federation would almost certainly refuse to surrender Zife to the Klingons for justice. IIRC, Captain Picard and the rest of the Enterprise crew reluctantly accepted this reality and kept their piece.

Consider the full ramifications of what may have happened based on further stories: If the Federation and the Klingons went to war, they would be extremely weakened by the time the Borg invasion was launched in masse. The likelihood of surviving the Borg invasion would have been significantly less — possibly near zero, given the number of separate individual actions that were needed for Alpha and Beta quadrant powers to ultimately prevail against devastating losses.

The specific events that instigated the invasion in "Destiny" may have been different, but the Borg's underlying motivations would've led to an invasion at some point.

Given the situation as the characters knew at the time and given the events to come, is the likely destruction of all non-Borg life in the galaxy worth bringing Zife to justice via proper channels (and later the conspirators that removed an obvious cancer from leadership)? Many American leaders and jurists have noted that the U.S. Constitution is not a suicide pact and that the duty to self-preservation can be higher than the strict adherence to what is referred to the highest law in the land. Consider President Gerald Ford's pardoning of his predecessor Richard Nixon. Nixon had resigned and was out of power, but further pursuit of justice could have fractured the country further.

Yes, Min Zife's removal was extralegal, but as other characters noted, the succession process was carried out following what we know about the Articles of Federation. When Bacco learned of Ross' involvement in her predecessor's removal, he was pressed into retirement to remove his influence on the administration.

That was the condition sought by Seeker reporter Ozla Graniv, who was able to gain leverage on the Bacco administration by bluffing. I don't know if the Bacco administration would confirm her findings on the record (but they wouldn't stop her either). That's key — Graniv couldn't publish what she had because the Orion Syndicate would kill her for publishing the information they provided her without attributing it to another group. Graniv's decision is another difficult between doing what is truthful and right and preserving the union and most of the ideals of which it stands.

I agree it is an imperfect solution, but as many Trek authors and Otto von Bismarck keep trying to tell us, politics is the art of the possible.
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Old September 4 2013, 07:12 AM   #125
Aranamac
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I wonder how the energy and propulsion of this book would've been different if it was organized into two parts: the DS9 narrative, ending with the surprise Bajora visitor arriving with absolutely no context, followed by the Kira/Keev narrative.

I enjoyed both stories, but found the alternating between narratives to be tonally jarring. Staying with DS9, then staying with Kira might've had more emotional punch.
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Old September 4 2013, 08:06 AM   #126
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Mage wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
an obvious set-up for future Kira plot developments.
THIS!!! A HUNDRED TIMES THIS!!!!!!

I've mentioned this before, but this novel is basicly RBoE, it's a setup for more. It's like a two-parter on the tv-shows. Part 1 might not impress or make a lot of sense. But watching both episodes back to back, things become clear. I have a feeling that a lot of the things set in the 'past' will make much more sense when this story is continued/concluded.
You seem to think the rest of us are slack jawed idiots who couldn't work out a lot of this was set-up. I get it was set-up, everyone else here seems to get that, but I just don't give a shit because it was so dull. Setting up plot points isn't a excuse to make something uninteresting.
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Old September 4 2013, 10:30 AM   #127
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
an obvious set-up for future Kira plot developments.
THIS!!! A HUNDRED TIMES THIS!!!!!!

I've mentioned this before, but this novel is basicly RBoE, it's a setup for more. It's like a two-parter on the tv-shows. Part 1 might not impress or make a lot of sense. But watching both episodes back to back, things become clear. I have a feeling that a lot of the things set in the 'past' will make much more sense when this story is continued/concluded.
You seem to think the rest of us are slack jawed idiots who couldn't work out a lot of this was set-up. I get it was set-up, everyone else here seems to get that, but I just don't give a shit because it was so dull. Setting up plot points isn't a excuse to make something uninteresting.
THIS!!! A THOUSAND TIMES THIS!!!!!!
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Old September 4 2013, 10:54 AM   #128
JeBuS
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

If I could vote for something worse than poor, I would do it. I registered for an account, after years of lurking, just to vote poor.

As far as the whole "it's meant to setup other books" argument... It is my belief that every book should be its own complete story. Even if there are threads left open for sequels, each and every book should be its own entity, able to stand on its own. This book cannot do so.

A horrible waste of time and dead trees. If this was an episode of a Trek television show, it would have been a "clip show". You know, the ones that recycle footage from previous episodes to make up the majority of the content. Often this comes in the form of flashbacks, "remember when". Usually this is to save on a season's production budget. Wonder what the excuse was for this novel.

Well, that's what most of this book was. Remember when. If you cut out all of the clips, you'd be left with a short story about some Bajorans, an assassination, and a description of the new DS9 starbase. So... about 50 pages or so.

In fact, if you were to compare this to a 1-hour television show, the first 50 minutes would have been "Previously on Star Trek: Boring," with the final 10 minutes setting up a cliff-hanger. It wouldn't be good TV, and it's not good reading.

Look, I understand that there's a lot of backstory for the characters and events in this universe. But devoting that much space to it is ridiculous. I don't want to pay for stories I've already seen, or paid for and read in the past!

I don't need a play-by-play of Sisko's first encounter with the Prophets, with commentary by Kira. I don't need to read through Sisko and Yates playing "remember when" about their marriage. How many pages were devoted to Sisko's daughter's weirdness, without any of it being used in the story? I want a new story! That's why I bought a new book! If I wanted this retread, I'd have gone back to read the other books.

There's a murder mystery here waiting to be told... but it doesn't even start until 80% through the book. Forget about wrapping it up by that point. I knew by then that I was either going to get the most unmysterious murder ever, or I'd be left with a cliff-hanger the likes of which I'd never seen before. I mean, how many authors would dare to start their story hundreds of pages into a novel, then tell the readers to buy the next one if they want to find out what happened? I was righteously pissed before I ever reached the end, because I knew what was coming.

What a waste. My advice, wait for this to hit the bargain bin, or buy it secondhand. Or better yet, pick it up from your local library.

Last edited by JeBuS; September 4 2013 at 11:41 AM.
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Old September 4 2013, 12:10 PM   #129
Edit_XYZ
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

RTOlson wrote: View Post
Consider the full ramifications of what may have happened based on further stories: If the Federation and the Klingons went to war, they would be extremely weakened by the time the Borg invasion was launched in masse. The likelihood of surviving the Borg invasion would have been significantly less — possibly near zero, given the number of separate individual actions that were needed for Alpha and Beta quadrant powers to ultimately prevail against devastating losses.
This argument is not convincing:
As per 'destiny', the chances of surviving a massive borg invasion were already practically 0*. And 10, 100 or 1000 ships more or less would not have influenced these chances to any significant degree.

What would have influenced the chances of survival positively would be new weapons - weaponising technologies/knowledge we know starfleet gained during its explorations (the most obvious - but far from unique - in trek lit being the taurus reach data - the utter incompetence starfleet demonstrated in dealing with this data borders on betrayal).
And a federation klingon war could have been just the event to spark such research projects.

*Starfleet's actions played no role in escaping annihilation beyond a ship randomly finding the caeliar and being a taxi service for a caeliar.

Given the situation as the characters knew at the time and given the events to come, is the likely destruction of all non-Borg life in the galaxy worth bringing Zife to justice via proper channels (and later the conspirators that removed an obvious cancer from leadership)? Many American leaders and jurists have noted that the U.S. Constitution is not a suicide pact and that the duty to self-preservation can be higher than the strict adherence to what is referred to the highest law in the land. Consider President Gerald Ford's pardoning of his predecessor Richard Nixon. Nixon had resigned and was out of power, but further pursuit of justice could have fractured the country further.
Consider the prime directive and how it is applied in the 24th century. For the federation, the prime directive IS a suicide pact.

And, as shown, invoking the borg here does not help the point you're trying to make.

JeBuS wrote: View Post
As far as the whole "it's meant to setup other books" argument... It is my belief that every book should be its own complete story. Even if there are threads left open for sequels, each and every book should be its own entity, able to stand on its own. This book cannot do so.

A horrible waste of time and dead trees. If this was an episode of a Trek television show, it would have been a "clip show". You know, the ones that recycle footage from previous episodes to make up the majority of the content. Often this comes in the form of flashbacks, "remember when". Usually this is to save on a season's production budget. Wonder what the excuse was for this novel.[...]

In fact, if you were to compare this to a 1-hour television show, the first 50 minutes would have been "Previously on Star Trek: Boring," with the final 10 minutes setting up a cliff-hanger. It wouldn't be good TV, and it's not good reading.[...]
Agreed. This book is a poor trek lit entry.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; September 4 2013 at 12:23 PM.
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Old September 4 2013, 04:20 PM   #130
Masiral
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JeBuS wrote: View Post
A horrible waste of time and dead trees. If this was an episode of a Trek television show, it would have been a "clip show". You know, the ones that recycle footage from previous episodes to make up the majority of the content. Often this comes in the form of flashbacks, "remember when". Usually this is to save on a season's production budget. Wonder what the excuse was for this novel.

Well, that's what most of this book was. Remember when. If you cut out all of the clips, you'd be left with a short story about some Bajorans, an assassination, and a description of the new DS9 starbase. So... about 50 pages or so.
The novel was not mostly flashbacks - the Kira side of the story alone was at least 100 pages. Really the only flashbacks that I can remember are Kira watching "Emissary".
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Old September 4 2013, 04:24 PM   #131
JeBuS
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Masiral wrote: View Post
The novel was not mostly flashbacks - the Kira side of the story alone was at least 100 pages. Really the only flashbacks that I can remember are Kira watching "Emissary".
By "Kira" I suppose you mean Keeva, or whatever the Bajora woman was called? This was the "short story" I mentioned. I call it such because it had absolutely no bearing on the rest of the novel. (Minus the last sentence)

Still, the first third or so of the novel is flashbacks. Then more flashbacks are sprinkled in the rest of the way. It's just not good storytelling. It's the first time I've ever been angry at a Trek author, before I even get half-way through a book.
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Old September 4 2013, 04:39 PM   #132
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
an obvious set-up for future Kira plot developments.
THIS!!! A HUNDRED TIMES THIS!!!!!!

I've mentioned this before, but this novel is basicly RBoE, it's a setup for more. It's like a two-parter on the tv-shows. Part 1 might not impress or make a lot of sense. But watching both episodes back to back, things become clear. I have a feeling that a lot of the things set in the 'past' will make much more sense when this story is continued/concluded.
You seem to think the rest of us are slack jawed idiots who couldn't work out a lot of this was set-up. I get it was set-up, everyone else here seems to get that, but I just don't give a shit because it was so dull. Setting up plot points isn't a excuse to make something uninteresting.
I'm sorry you have the wrong impression of me. All I can say is I have no such perception of others. If you do believe that to be true, I'm afraid there's nothing I can do about that.
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Old September 4 2013, 04:52 PM   #133
Sci
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JeBuS wrote: View Post
Masiral wrote: View Post
The novel was not mostly flashbacks - the Kira side of the story alone was at least 100 pages. Really the only flashbacks that I can remember are Kira watching "Emissary".
By "Kira" I suppose you mean Keeva, or whatever the Bajora woman was called? This was the "short story" I mentioned. I call it such because it had absolutely no bearing on the rest of the novel.
You didn't notice the thematic contrast, or draw any conclusions about the comparison between Bajor's history and its present?

Sounds to me like you wanted an action-driven story -- which is fine, but DRGIII's books are usually character-driven rather than action driven. You're not judging the book on its own terms, and that's unfair. You might as well get mad that the movie Tinker Tailor Solider Spy was too slow and introspective instead of being fast-paced and action-packed like Casino Royale.

DRGIII's books are in generally character-based and gradually build pressure to a boil instead of turning the heat up right away. That's just his writing style; it's the kind of story that works for him and for his fans. Don't read DRGIII expecting David Mack (who is equally brilliant in a different way); don't watch Tinker Tailor Solider Spy expecting Casino Royale (again, equally brilliant in a different way).
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Old September 4 2013, 04:54 PM   #134
JeBuS
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

So, I went through the first half of the book, just to make sure my initial impressions weren't completely off base... Here's a breakdown by chapter.



This is excessive use of flashbacks. Especially considering they don't stop there.
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Old September 4 2013, 04:56 PM   #135
JeBuS
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Re: TF: Revelation and Dust by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci wrote: View Post
You didn't notice the thematic contrast, or draw any conclusions about the comparison between Bajor's history and its present?

Sounds to me like you wanted an action-driven story -- which is fine, but DRGIII's books are usually character-driven rather than action driven. You're not judging the book on its own terms, and that's unfair. You might as well get mad that the movie Tinker Tailor Solider Spy was too slow and introspective instead of being fast-paced and action-packed like Casino Royale.

DRGIII's books are in generally character-based and gradually build pressure to a boil instead of turning the heat up right away. That's just his writing style; it's the kind of story that works for him and for his fans. Don't read DRGIII expecting David Mack (who is equally brilliant in a different way); don't watch Tinker Tailor Solider Spy expecting Casino Royale (again, equally brilliant in a different way).
I had no problem with the Bajora short story included in this novel. At least it was NEW content. It was a bit slow at first, but in the end, it was probably the best part of this whole book.
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