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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old August 24 2013, 03:07 AM   #46
Kruezerman
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

"Khan and his people were condemned to death as war criminals."

Admiral Alexander Marcus.

And numerous other lines of dialogue from the movie.
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Old August 24 2013, 03:13 AM   #47
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

Is that replying to me? I didn't say it wasn't brought up in the movie. I said nothing about Khan being from the past had anything to do with the actual story. Which is true. As others have said in this thread Harrison and his followers could have come from anywhere and the same basic story would have been the same.
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Old August 24 2013, 03:41 AM   #48
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

Look, if you want to speculate as to how different the film might be if Khan wasn't Khan, that's all well and good, but that's not what the original premise of this thread seemed to be. My understanding of the original premise was "don't have Khan be Khan, but otherwise minimal changes to the film", in which case I think my concern is valid.

Whether or not it's pertinent to the film that Khan is from Earth's past, it is brought up in the film. If we're going by the theory of minimal changes, then some generic character from Earth's past being in the film might make me wonder why they didn't use a classic villain. If we're -not- going by that theory, then you can't just say "he's not Khan", but rather you've opened up the question of what his background is instead and how it's significantly different from Khan's.
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Old August 24 2013, 03:57 AM   #49
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
And if that was the change then, as I indicated earlier, I might have been left thinking, "Geeze, why not just make him Khan instead of BSing around the fact that that's basically who he is anyway?"
Except he isn't really. Orci himself admitted the character was developed as an entirely new character who was named Khan only because Lindelof wanted Khan to be in the movie even before it was written. And really, it could have been a better movie if they stuck with that new character instead.
Perhaps the need for magic blood was a hugh sticking point for it NOT being Khan. Khan equaled greater simplicity for resurrecting you know who.
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Old August 25 2013, 02:30 AM   #50
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

I have to admit, the same thought struck me the first time I watched ID. It's more interesting if Benedict is simply another augment who Marcus chose to wake - perhaps because he thought he'd be more amiable to their cause than someone like Khan.

It's simply to rectify why he looks different - Section 31 wouldn't want anyone with a history book about the Eugenics Wars recognizing their secret weapon. That doesn't really bother me. It's just kind of... annoying they went back to the Khan well. But frankly, I think they felt they had to. Everything they wanted to do with reversing the Kirk/Spock roles and the throwbacks to TWOK would not have been as effective otherwise.
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Old September 4 2013, 07:27 AM   #51
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

Pondslider wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
I certainly agree that John Harrison was more interesting than Khan, and even made a thread to that effect. And certainly since Orci has described the creative process for the character as creating and developing a new character who he then named Khan kind of makes it really pointless for the character to be Khan.

Just what is accomplished by this anyway? It's not marketing, they kept the Khan identity top secret thereby preventing them from taking advantage of any marketing opportunity this idea presents itself with.

One could argue dramatic effect. It would be completely out of left field for Harrison, sitting in the brig to announce he's Khan. And I suppose it would have been if the Abrams posse hadn't constantly been saying there's a twist to the Harrison character related to Trek canon like snickering school children telling the loser kid they know who has a crush on him but refusing to reveal who exactly.

I get the impression they are in love with plot twists and wanted to try their hand at a twist which will be forever remembered in movie history like Vader revealing he's Luke's father. Instead they completely ruined it just made themselves look like petulant children and by extension unprofessional filmmakers.

Or, they like "TWOK is our favourite movie and we really wanted to revisit it. So we remade its most memorable scene and named our villain Khan."

A better approach would have been to stick to the John Harrison character as the villain or if they wanted to use Khan so badly been upfront about it, actually write and develop the character as Khan, and announced to the world as soon as Cumberbatch was cast that he was indeed Khan.
Yup. And since the name Khan was meaningless to Kirk, Spock, McCoy, the reveal carried no weight except for with the audience. The whole thing was a missed opportunity.
after thinking about it why did he have to be Khan. why not one of the other supermen that were frozen? when admiral marcus boarded the botany bay why not open a different cryo tube then the one containing Khan? Say the one containing Khans 1st officer John Harrison, who is just as loyal to Khans cause. you could have had that nod to TWOK and space seed but have your own new villain.
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Old September 4 2013, 07:39 AM   #52
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

Immolatus wrote: View Post
after thinking about it why did he have to be Khan. why not one of the other supermen that were frozen? when admiral marcus boarded the botany bay why not open a different cryo tube then the one containing Khan? Say the one containing Khans 1st officer John Harrison, who is just as loyal to Khans cause. you could have had that nod to TWOK and space seed but have your own new villain.
For the same reason you don't make a Batman film with a sociopath clown and call him Bozo.
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Old September 4 2013, 09:05 AM   #53
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Immolatus wrote: View Post
after thinking about it why did he have to be Khan. why not one of the other supermen that were frozen? when admiral marcus boarded the botany bay why not open a different cryo tube then the one containing Khan? Say the one containing Khans 1st officer John Harrison, who is just as loyal to Khans cause. you could have had that nod to TWOK and space seed but have your own new villain.
For the same reason you don't make a Batman film with a sociopath clown and call him Bozo.
why not if it works. if Bozo is an outstanding villian as was John Harrison it would be fine.
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Old September 4 2013, 10:41 AM   #54
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

^ If it looks like Khan, acts like Khan and feels like Khan, name it Shinzon.
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Old September 4 2013, 05:57 PM   #55
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

Immolatus wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Immolatus wrote: View Post
after thinking about it why did he have to be Khan. why not one of the other supermen that were frozen? when admiral marcus boarded the botany bay why not open a different cryo tube then the one containing Khan? Say the one containing Khans 1st officer John Harrison, who is just as loyal to Khans cause. you could have had that nod to TWOK and space seed but have your own new villain.
For the same reason you don't make a Batman film with a sociopath clown and call him Bozo.
why not if it works. if Bozo is an outstanding villian as was John Harrison it would be fine.
Well why not call the movie Star Battles and instead of Kirk lets have Captain Yeats and instead of Klingons lets call them Blingtons.
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Old September 4 2013, 06:41 PM   #56
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

Immolatus wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Immolatus wrote: View Post
after thinking about it why did he have to be Khan. why not one of the other supermen that were frozen? when admiral marcus boarded the botany bay why not open a different cryo tube then the one containing Khan? Say the one containing Khans 1st officer John Harrison, who is just as loyal to Khans cause. you could have had that nod to TWOK and space seed but have your own new villain.
For the same reason you don't make a Batman film with a sociopath clown and call him Bozo.
why not if it works. if Bozo is an outstanding villian as was John Harrison it would be fine.
The Dark Knight, starring Heath Ledger as Bozo the Clown. Yeah, that would've worked just as well
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Old September 5 2013, 02:52 AM   #57
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

Immolatus wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Immolatus wrote: View Post
after thinking about it why did he have to be Khan. why not one of the other supermen that were frozen? when admiral marcus boarded the botany bay why not open a different cryo tube then the one containing Khan? Say the one containing Khans 1st officer John Harrison, who is just as loyal to Khans cause. you could have had that nod to TWOK and space seed but have your own new villain.
For the same reason you don't make a Batman film with a sociopath clown and call him Bozo.
why not if it works. if Bozo is an outstanding villian as was John Harrison it would be fine.
Well, in the case of Batman, there's better marketing potential if the villain is the Joker than if he's Bozo.

It's a fine enough argument for using Khan, except since they kept him a secret they couldn't take advantage of any marketing potential the character would have had.
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Old September 5 2013, 05:49 PM   #58
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Well, in the case of Batman, there's better marketing potential if the villain is the Joker than if he's Bozo.

It's a fine enough argument for using Khan, except since they kept him a secret they couldn't take advantage of any marketing potential the character would have had.
I would also argue with the notion of Khan being Kirk's Joker.
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Old September 5 2013, 09:57 PM   #59
The Wormhole
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

Praetor wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Well, in the case of Batman, there's better marketing potential if the villain is the Joker than if he's Bozo.

It's a fine enough argument for using Khan, except since they kept him a secret they couldn't take advantage of any marketing potential the character would have had.
I would also argue with the notion of Khan being Kirk's Joker.
As would I, but it's an argument I've lost in the past.
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Old September 5 2013, 10:02 PM   #60
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Re: Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Well, in the case of Batman, there's better marketing potential if the villain is the Joker than if he's Bozo.

It's a fine enough argument for using Khan, except since they kept him a secret they couldn't take advantage of any marketing potential the character would have had.
I would also argue with the notion of Khan being Kirk's Joker.
As would I, but it's an argument I've lost in the past.
But the question isn't "who are the bad guys;" it's "Who is Kirk/Batman's primary nemesis and foil?"
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