RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 137,905
Posts: 5,330,764
Members: 24,558
Currently online: 609
Newest member: laurah2215

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Inquisition
By: Michelle on Jul 12

Cubify Star Trek 3DMe Mini Figurines
By: T'Bonz on Jul 11

Latest Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Jul 10

Seven of Nine Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

Pegg The Prankster
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

More Trek Stars Join Unbelievable!!!!!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

Star Trek #35 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

New ThinkGeek Trek Apparel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Star Trek Movie Prop Auction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Drexler: NX Engineering Room Construction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Tech

Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 30 2013, 10:37 PM   #196
Mysterion
Rear Admiral
 
Mysterion's Avatar
 
Location: SB-31, Daran V
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Timo wrote: View Post
Interestingly, I've been told there are indications that in the 24th century Starfleet keeps a Constitution-class starship "USS Republic" in service as a training vessel; something about the Connies makes them great teaching tools for cadets, maybe?
The "indications" come from the episode "Valiant", where even the ignorant civilian Jake Sisko has heard of the famous training ship Republic. No class identity is given for that ship, other than her being at least fifty years old. Might be Starfleet is now in the habit of building dedicated training ships that all are named Republic - indeed, the one from TOS "Court Martial" may have been a purpose-built training ship already, for all we know, carrying an already venerable name. Or then Starfleet for some other reason has chosen to employ a generic starship named Republic as a training ship again in the 24th century.

Assuming, of course, that the TOS ship either was a training ship by design or served in a training role. There's no direct evidence of either: any regular frontline starship might have filled the dramatic role of the ship where Ensign Kirk serves "several years" after graduation. We only indirectly know that Kirk should still have been associated with the Academy at Ensign rank (supposedly as an instructor), thus the Republic should have been somehow associated as well. But not necessarily as a training vessel.

I guess the only pressing reason to think that the Republic of the 24th century is not the one from Kirk's past is that Picard insists the Constitution class only exists as a single hull in a museum as of the 2360s. But he may well be speaking of the unrefitted version, and the Republic might have received a refit.

Or then the Republic from Kirk's past never had anything even remotely to do with the Constitution class. After all, we have no good reason to think she did.

Timo Saloniemi
I don't think that the training ship Republic is a Constitution class vessel. Or at least there is no reason it has to be. Certainly, the hull number in the 1300's would seem to indicate that it is not. I also believe that the Republic in the TNG/DSN/VGR era is likely the same as the one mentioned in the TOS era.

USS Republic is probably a ship similar in circumstance to the USCGC Eagle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCGC_Eagle_(WIX-327)

As a training ship, it doesn't need to be a top-of-the-line vessel. It's purpose is to give midshipmen their first exposure to a shipboard environment and routine. Basic seamanship (starmanship?) sort of stuff. They'll learn all the whiz-bang techie stuff later on at the Academy.
__________________
USS Galileo Galilei, NCC-8888
Prima Inter Pares
Mysterion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 31 2013, 05:47 AM   #197
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Timo wrote: View Post
Whether her seminar would be related to the Academy, or even to Starfleet at all, is unknown.
How could she be charing a seminar AT the Academy that isn't RELATED to the Academy?

Or then part of the regular crew of the E-A, as he is basically the only one who isn't indicated not to be such.
Except he has a rank of commander at this point and has for several years already. At his last assignment, he was first officer on Reliant. His posting on Enterprise, like Sulu's posting, is basically a temporary assignment due to a sudden emergency on a ship that is barely spaceworthy in the first place. We KNOW Sulu went back to his regular duties afterwards, so did Chekov go back to languishing in obscurity in James T. Kirk's shadow?

(First choice for Enterprise-B with Harriman as backup?)
Hmm. If Starfleet wanted somebody from Kirk's posse for the E-B (beyond the photo-op), why not take Kirk? It's not as if he's past the retirement age yet or anything.
Past retirement age or not, Kirk has ALREADY retired. If you go by the Shatnerverse novels, his not getting the Enterprise-B is the REASON he retired.

But if Kirk has a point and "galloping among the cosmos is a game for the young," then Chekov has both the benefit of youth AND several dozen years of deep space experience. Considering Sulu's daughter also managed to land a spot at the helm console, I don't see him getting passed over for the Enterprise-B unless he specifically declined the offer or was otherwise handed a more prestigious assignment elsewhere.

He is out of the loop regarding Sulu, suggesting he might indeed be removed from daily Starfleet activities, but that's basically his only counterindication to being part of the regular E-A crew. And Kirk's retort about it being "Captain Sulu" now should be taken to indicate that Bones has slept past Sulu's promotion somehow - but an obvious way for that to happen is having Bones be somewhere far away from Earth, which might mean he has been aboard the E-A exploring the outer reaches of the known.
Unlikely. This is BONES we're talking about; he doesn't particularly enjoy space travel and he enjoys transporters even less. The only reason he stayed on the Enterprise as long as he did was out of loyalty to Kirk and his shipmates; it would be completely out of character for him to voluntarily go into deep space WITHOUT said shipmates.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 31 2013, 06:02 AM   #198
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Mysterion wrote: View Post
USS Republic is probably a ship similar in circumstance to the USCGC Eagle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCGC_Eagle_(WIX-327)
That would seem to support the idea of it being a Constitution class, no? Considering the Constellation already had a hull number of 1017 and appears to be a Constitution herself.

As a training ship, it doesn't need to be a top-of-the-line vessel. It's purpose is to give midshipmen their first exposure to a shipboard environment and routine. Basic seamanship (starmanship?) sort of stuff. They'll learn all the whiz-bang techie stuff later on at the Academy.
Most of which I had in mind when I was thinking of the Enterprise as a training vessel; that more or less implies that the Constitution class itself is woefully obsolete even by 23rd century standards and by the 24th is basically a museum piece.

The more significant thing is that we've never see any Constitution class ships in the refit configuration other than the Enterprise and the Enterprise-A. We've seen multiple examples of virtually every other ship class, including both Excelsior versions, multiple Miranda versions, three different Constellations, etc. Of the refit Constitutions, we've only ever seen two, and BOTH of them were named Enterprise. It strikes me that, based purely on what we have SEEN, there is no reason to believe that ANY of the other Constitutions received a refit and were instead decommissioned en masse in favor of the Mirandas and/or Constellations. It's not even certain the Enterprise-A was a refit conversion; considering its sorry condition in TFF, it's just as possible it was an unfinished engineering/structural test article that was never intended to fly but got slapped together at the last minute for PR purposes (not unlike how NASA managed to replace the Challenger in short order using mostly spare parts).
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 31 2013, 05:57 PM   #199
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
But very comparable. M5's control sabotaged the override system but once disconnected, they were able to begin overriding the system. It's not that different from Scotty's automation system except that once it was disabled, there was no way for them to override it manually.
That's supposition again. It is a complete unknown whether or not the ship could even be operated with that small a crew without the automation center in place; it stands to reason that it couldn't, or else Scotty wouldn't have bothered hooking it up.
Which I point back to "The Doomsday Machine". We know from "The Ultimate Computer" that a crew of 20 can't run the Enterprise under normal conditions. However, under emergency conditions, a crew of 4 in "The Doomsday Machine" can get a crippled ship to move, fire and have shields.

The problem isn't why Scotty hooked up the automation center but whether it could be manually overridden when broken. Since Scotty hooked it up in a manner that did not account for combat it tells us that it was jury-rigged and not a final repair. They really needed that 2 weeks for refitting to complete the repairs and replace damaged equipment.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
1) Torpedo approaches Enterprise (note the shadow next to the impulse deck
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post

2) Torpedo HITS Enterprise (note the entire starboard portion of the saucer AND THE BRIDGE DOME illuminated, as is the impulse deck; note the shadow is partially glared out but is still almost noticeable)
The whole back half of the saucer is lit up because of the glow from the expanding gas that wraps around the back of the saucer. That isn't indicative of where the hit is.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post

3) Sparkly after effects (note the shadow is still present but is again partially glared out be the sparks).
And that is where the problem comes in for an impact directly between the impulse engine and bridge. The front of the impulse deck would be lit continually and that shadow that is partially lightened should be continually lightened. However, it is not continually lit as you can see in my previous screen shot. The majority of the time that shadow remains dark pointing to a hit on the port side of the impulse deck.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The impact point cannot be to port of the impulse deck, because if it was the bridge would cast a shadow on the starboard side of the saucer at the moment of impact (it clearly does not), as seen in the second image.
Regardless of a hit directly behind or port side, it would not cause a new shadow to be cast by the bridge as its too weak to completely eliminate the shadow of the impulse deck.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
More importantly, Kruge's torpedo is only visible for all of four frames, during which time it crosses in front of the bridge, from right to left, immediately before impact.

From the camera's point of view, the torpedo could not have passed in front of the bridge AND hit saucer on the port side;
Sure it can. You can see the port side of the impulse deck from that camera angle so even though it crosses the bridge it is in the same line of sight of the camera. You'd have something if the bridge obscured the port-side of the impulse deck though.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
the explosion certainly wouldn't have illuminated the STARBOARD side of the bridge dome, as it clearly does in slowmo.
That's the gas cloud that is illuminating the back half of the saucer, including the bridge.


Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
What does that prove since that shadow was already present before the torpedo even hit them?
Since it doesn't change the majority of time then the impact point isn't in front of the impulse deck.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
So the only cadets that get any actual training on a real training ship is the bridge crew? The transporter crew, the maintenance crew that need to do EVAs and other non-ship crew are out of luck?
Quite the opposite, in fact. The whole reason for having a training mission is so that all of the cadets learn how to do their jobs under shipboard conditions: how to do an EVA on a starship in deep space, how to file reports to a shipboard department head, how perform routine maintenance in a crawlspace, how to troubleshoot a bad guidance system on a torpedo using the ship's own equipment (FYI: one of my favorite odd jobs) and so on. It's a chance to get out of the simulator and into the real deal.
Operating a transporter to select a beam down point to beam a survey team down and retrieving them would be one of the things a cadet crew would need to practice on a ship.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Having the crew go on surface excursions -- away from the ship into what could only be yet another controlled/simulated environment -- would defeat the whole purpose of a training mission.
So you believe that it's okay to do learn how to do the real things from a ship except for a beam down and survey which is done from a ship in actuality? .

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Besides, a lot of the equipment they'd have on board for such a mission would be specialized for training purposes in particular. The Navy does this all the time with recoverable munitions -- particularly torpedoes -- and sometimes fitting out surface vessels or submarines with extra components that allow them to realistically simulate major battle damage for the trainees to repair. Starfleet's all about realism on these trips, which is part of the reason why their simulators often burst into flames when the cadets screw up; realism in a safe environment is fairly difficult to achieve and would require equipment far more specialized than most starships actually carry.
TWOK pretty much shows that a training ship carries the actual equipment and not fake training equipment. Otherwise damage control and firing back at Khan would be impossible. The equipment to equip the team to beam over to Regula 1 would've been not present. Instead a training ship like the Enterprise is the real deal.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Since the Excelsior had the gear for the duration of Sulu's 3 year mission then the E-A carrying the same kind of gear would suggest that Starfleet was making that a standard load and/or the E-A was going to or already does patrol near the Klingons, IMHO.
Which begs the question: What was Enterprise doing in Spacedock again, with Kirk and crew three months from retirement, and inexplicably in need of a helmsman? That, to me, always suggested that Kirk pretty much grabbed his entire bridge crew -- Spock et al -- from the Academy faculty lounge, kicked off (most of) the cadets and then went on his mission with a volunteer helmsman who may or may not have just finished training on that very same ship two semesters ago.
The status of the bridge crew of the Enterprise need not indicate the status of the Enterprise herself. If the Enterprise was not considered able to protect the Klingon delegation 900 light years to Earth against Klingons or Earth ships trying to disrupt the talks then she would not have been sent. They could have easily had Kirk take over the Excelsior or another ship if the Enterprise was not up to the task.
C in C: Well, there are Klingons who feel the same way about the peace treaty as yourself and Admiral Cartwright. But they'll think twice about attacking the Enterprise under your command.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 31 2013, 05:59 PM   #200
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Most of which I had in mind when I was thinking of the Enterprise as a training vessel; that more or less implies that the Constitution class itself is woefully obsolete even by 23rd century standards and by the 24th is basically a museum piece.
If the Enterprise was obsolete she wouldn't have been sent to escort the Klingon delegation to Earth. And not all training ships are obsolete as the Valiant in DS9 was one of the newer ships.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 1 2013, 04:52 AM   #201
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
The problem isn't why Scotty hooked up the automation center but whether it could be manually overridden when broken.
Which again leads us full circle to "Why did he install it in the first place?" The theoretical answer is that the Enterprise cannot be operated purely from the bridge unless the rest of the ship is placed under automatic control. If the automation fails, the ship cannot be controlled.

You cite "doomsday machine" that the ship CAN be controlled from a single point, which would render the automation center on the Enterprise entirely useless. There's a contradiction there that needs resolving. Either Constellation possesses a capability that Enterprise lacks (and therefore the latter cannot do the same without being configured for it ahead of time) or -- more likely -- the automation center is standard equipment and Decker activated it just prior to beaming down his crew.

The whole back half of the saucer is lit up because of the glow from the expanding gas that wraps around the back of the saucer. That isn't indicative of where the hit is.
It is, actually, because the STARBOARD side of the saucer is lit up here while the PORT side is not; that side of the saucer is shaded from the light effects by the bridge dome and the upper levels of the saucer itself. This means the impact point is somewhere on the starboard side of the saucer.

And that is where the problem comes in for an impact directly between the impulse engine and bridge. The front of the impulse deck would be lit continually...
For the duration of the explosion and its after effects, yes. Then, as soon as the blast and the secondary effects dissipate, the shadow returns to its original darkness, cast by the impulse deck by the external light source to the ship.

Which is exactly what we see.

Sure it can. You can see the port side of the impulse deck from that camera angle...
But you cannot see the impact point, which is obscured behind the bridge. If the torpedo was moving down boresight (the camera is in line with the torpedo's flight path) it would be still be impossible, since the torpedo would have to either physically pass through the bridge dome or otherwise "dip" below the visible structure of the dome/saucer to hit that point. Indeed, it could only hit the point you specified if it was traveling (in the camera frame) from roughly top left towards bottom right.

From the camera's point of view, the impact point is slightly behind and to the left of the bridge module; IOW, outside of the red lines on the diagram below.



Note that the path of the torpedo is from top right to bottom left. At that trajectory it could not have crossed over to the port side of the saucer section before hitting the ship.

Operating a transporter to select a beam down point to beam a survey team down and retrieving them would be one of the things a cadet crew would need to practice on a ship.
Actually, that's something they spend most of their time practicing in the simulator.

Training ships are used to teach cadets how to live and work aboard an actual ship on a day-to-day basis; transporter operations and away mission scenarios are trained on a situational basis and such training is usually conducted in a simulator or (in the field) in the form of drills and exercises. "Learn how to use the fire control system" is simply not what training ships are used for; "Get used to using the fire control system on an actual ship where you don't have your academy bunk, the bar across the street, the library, your girlfriend or your momma's cooking to keep you comfortable" is.

The status of the bridge crew of the Enterprise need not indicate the status of the Enterprise herself. If the Enterprise was not considered able to protect the Klingon delegation 900 light years to Earth against Klingons or Earth ships trying to disrupt the talks then she would not have been sent. They could have easily had Kirk take over the Excelsior or another ship if the Enterprise was not up to the task.
C in C: Well, there are Klingons who feel the same way about the peace treaty as yourself and Admiral Cartwright. But they'll think twice about attacking the Enterprise under your command.
That raises the question of whether or not the Enterprise was actually under Kirk's command prior to the Praxis explosion. If he was, then "under your command" would seem a little redundant, wouldn't it?
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 2 2013, 02:31 AM   #202
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
The problem isn't why Scotty hooked up the automation center but whether it could be manually overridden when broken.
You cite "doomsday machine" that the ship CAN be controlled from a single point, which would render the automation center on the Enterprise entirely useless.
Actually I cite "The Doomsday Machine" because they were able to manually control the ship at different locations. Scotty was able to get functionality for movement and phasers from engineering by swapping the controls and recharging a phaser bank. For TSFS, if manual control was possible they could have ran Scotty and Chekov down to engineering to transfer power to phasers and Sulu to the phaser control room to manually fire them. Scotty could also at that point put power to the shields.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The whole back half of the saucer is lit up because of the glow from the expanding gas that wraps around the back of the saucer. That isn't indicative of where the hit is.
It is, actually, because the STARBOARD side of the saucer is lit up here while the PORT side is not; that side of the saucer is shaded from the light effects by the bridge dome and the upper levels of the saucer itself. This means the impact point is somewhere on the starboard side of the saucer.
Not really. The expanding gas cloud that wraps around the back of the saucer isn't symmetrical to a center impact point (it goes all the way from 2 o'clock to 7 o'clock). If it hit more starboard of the saucer then the hit would be visible but it's clear that it doesn't hit to the starboard side and goes to the gas cloud not indicative of the impact point.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
For the duration of the explosion and its after effects, yes. Then, as soon as the blast and the secondary effects dissipate, the shadow returns to its original darkness, cast by the impulse deck by the external light source to the ship.

Which is exactly what we see.
We also exactly see the beginning of the explosion, frame 4, where the explosion lights up only the port side rim of the impulse deck not the forward or starboard part. That points to a port side hit.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post



Note that the path of the torpedo is from top right to bottom left. At that trajectory it could not have crossed over to the
port side of the saucer section before hitting the ship.
Okay, I'm curious. Which frame grab do you get the torpedo crossing from the red vertical line on the right? The 1st visible frame of the torpedo is alot close to the left side red line.

Here is a more accurate version of the flight path and it shows that the torpedo path can clear the bridge section and goes to the forward port side of the impulse deck. The 5 frame flight shows the torpedo passing by the bridge module. Frame 5 shows the beginning of the explosion and it increases the brightness of the port side rim of the impulse engine but not the forward or starboard side. The 6th frame has the glowing gas that wraps around the saucer.




Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Operating a transporter to select a beam down point to beam a survey team down and retrieving them would be one of the things a cadet crew would need to practice on a ship.
Actually, that's something they spend most of their time practicing in the simulator.
That's an okay assumption. But it lacks the real-world experience of doing it from a real ship which is the logical next step after simulator training. You make the same argument:
Crazie Eddie wrote, "The whole reason for having a training mission is so that all of the cadets learn how to do their jobs under shipboard conditions"
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Training ships are used to teach cadets how to live and work aboard an actual ship on a day-to-day basis; transporter operations and away mission scenarios are trained on a situational basis and such training is usually conducted in a simulator or (in the field) in the form of drills and exercises.
Considering that beaming onto and off a ship is a routine operation then I'd argue that knowing how to operate a transporter would qualify as something to train for.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The status of the bridge crew of the Enterprise need not indicate the status of the Enterprise herself. If the Enterprise was not considered able to protect the Klingon delegation 900 light years to Earth against Klingons or Earth ships trying to disrupt the talks then she would not have been sent. They could have easily had Kirk take over the Excelsior or another ship if the Enterprise was not up to the task.
C in C: Well, there are Klingons who feel the same way about the peace treaty as yourself and Admiral Cartwright. But they'll think twice about attacking the Enterprise under your command.
That raises the question of whether or not the Enterprise was actually under Kirk's command prior to the Praxis explosion. If he was, then "under your command" would seem a little redundant, wouldn't it?
Whether the Enterprise was under Kirk's command or not is irrelevant as it wouldn't indicate her status prior to the mission. What we do know is that the Enterprise was carrying gaseous anomaly scanning equipment like the Excelsior so she either got the equipment right before she mission or she was already carrying it. The main point is that if she was obsolete or unable to escort the Klingon delegation 900 light years to Earth they could've had Kirk command another ship.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 2 2013, 10:20 PM   #203
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Not really. The expanding gas cloud that wraps around the back of the saucer isn't symmetrical to a center impact point (it goes all the way from 2 o'clock to 7 o'clock). If it hit more starboard of the saucer then the hit would be visible
It would not. The aft-starboard portion of the saucer is still obscured behind the hump (containing decks 3 and 4 above the rim).

but it's clear that it doesn't hit to the starboard side
I've already demonstrated it easily could given its trajectory. Even your "corrected" trajectory demonstrates this possibility.

We also exactly see the beginning of the explosion, frame 4, where the explosion lights up only the port side rim of the impulse deck
Incorrect. At no point in the entire process is ONLY the portside rim illuminated. The impulse deck ceases to be visible during the actual explosion; the first frame where we can see it again is this one:



That's the forward starboard rim.

That light, by the way, isn't coming from a "gas cloud" wrapping around the saucer, it's coming from the actual impact point; the secondary "sparkly" effects are absent in this frame.

Okay, I'm curious. Which frame grab do you get the torpedo crossing from the red vertical line on the right?
It doesn't. That's just an estimate of the torpedo's flight path: right to left, top to bottom. The "origin" of the weapon is a point behind above and to the right of the frame; spatially, this means the torpedo passed into the image above and to the right of the camera's POV (since the camera is closer to the Enterprise than the ship that fired it).

Here is a more accurate version....
Which still puts the impact point on the starboard-aft side: for all five frames the torpedo is visible, it is IN FRONT of the bridge dome in four of them and explodes on the 5th. We can tell from the glare on hull where the torpedo actually is; when it actually explodes, it is still on the starboard side of the dome.

That's an okay assumption. But it lacks the real-world experience of doing it from a real ship which is the logical next step after simulator training.
The military doesn't work that way. By the time cadets are in a position to "do it for real" in a live fire situation, they are no longer cadets. Active duty soldiers and officers in the field train continually whenever they're not engaged in combat, sometimes in proving grounds and designated training areas, but most of the time in shipboard drills and exercises.

FYI, Starfleet doesn't work that way either. Wesley Crusher, for example, was trained to use the helm console on the Enterprise and various pieces of Starfleet equipment before he ever attended the academy. Even the highly unusual case of Red Squad on the USS Valiant -- a ship that arguably they would have crewed after graduation -- was assigned to "circumnavigate the Federation," not to chart unknown planets along the periphery.

You make the same argument:
Crazie Eddie wrote, "The whole reason for having a training mission is so that all of the cadets learn how to do their jobs under shipboard conditions"
Considering that beaming onto and off a ship is a routine operation
Not as routine as transporter maintenance and cleaning, filing daily reports to one's superior, system testing and diagnostics, calibrations, system updates and regular safety inspections. All of which are things a cadet doesn't have to deal with at the academy because he's AT THE ACADEMY and maintaining the transporter system on a day-to-day basis isn't his job.

You don't go on a training mission to learn how to explore space. You go on a training mission to learn how to LIVE in space.

Whether the Enterprise was under Kirk's command or not is irrelevant as it wouldn't indicate her status prior to the mission.
It would, actually. Who, after all, was commanding the ship BEFORE Kirk took it out and where exactly is he during the mission?

If it's Spock in command, then Enterprise is probably still performing the same mission as last time ("As a teacher, on a training cruise, am I content to command the Enterprise..."). If it's anyone else in command... where is he?

The main point is that if she was obsolete or unable to escort the Klingon delegation 900 light years to Earth they could've had Kirk command another ship.
Being obsolete and being unable to escort Kronos-1 are mutually exclusive concepts.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!

Last edited by Crazy Eddie; September 2 2013 at 10:31 PM.
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3 2013, 12:20 AM   #204
austen_pierce
Commander
 
austen_pierce's Avatar
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
But very comparable. M5's control sabotaged the override system but once disconnected, they were able to begin overriding the system. It's not that different from Scotty's automation system except that once it was disabled, there was no way for them to override it manually.
That's supposition again. It is a complete unknown whether or not the ship could even be operated with that small a crew without the automation center in place; it stands to reason that it couldn't, or else Scotty wouldn't have bothered hooking it up.

It also goes unmentioned that the automation center may or may not be a standard feature aboard the Constitution class, something that can afford limited control of ship's systems in am emergency. In which case, the only thing Scotty would need in order to set it up would be to beam over and put in the password to activate it.

It's not much different than "The Doomsday Machine"? The ship was smashed and 4 guys were able to get the ship to function on manual controls.
They were able to get it to MOVE with manual controls, and then not particularly well. Eventually, they rigged it to maneuver with only a SINGLE person at the controls, which we have also seen half a dozen times in the total history of Star Trek.

So why did Scotty rig an automation center in the first place?

The "sparking" occurs after the impact, not during. Three things happen here:

1) Torpedo approaches Enterprise (note the shadow next to the impulse deck



2) Torpedo HITS Enterprise (note the entire starboard portion of the saucer AND THE BRIDGE DOME illuminated, as is the impulse deck; note the shadow is partially glared out but is still almost noticeable)



3) Sparkly after effects (note the shadow is still present but is again partially glared out be the sparks).

The impact point cannot be to port of the impulse deck, because if it was the bridge would cast a shadow on the starboard side of the saucer at the moment of impact (it clearly does not), as seen in the second image. More importantly, Kruge's torpedo is only visible for all of four frames, during which time it crosses in front of the bridge, from right to left, immediately before impact.

From the camera's point of view, the torpedo could not have passed in front of the bridge AND hit saucer on the port side; the explosion certainly wouldn't have illuminated the STARBOARD side of the bridge dome, as it clearly does in slowmo.

What does that prove since that shadow was already present before the torpedo even hit them?

So the only cadets that get any actual training on a real training ship is the bridge crew? The transporter crew, the maintenance crew that need to do EVAs and other non-ship crew are out of luck?
Quite the opposite, in fact. The whole reason for having a training mission is so that all of the cadets learn how to do their jobs under shipboard conditions: how to do an EVA on a starship in deep space, how to file reports to a shipboard department head, how perform routine maintenance in a crawlspace, how to troubleshoot a bad guidance system on a torpedo using the ship's own equipment (FYI: one of my favorite odd jobs) and so on. It's a chance to get out of the simulator and into the real deal. Having the crew go on surface excursions -- away from the ship into what could only be yet another controlled/simulated environment -- would defeat the whole purpose of a training mission.

Besides, a lot of the equipment they'd have on board for such a mission would be specialized for training purposes in particular. The Navy does this all the time with recoverable munitions -- particularly torpedoes -- and sometimes fitting out surface vessels or submarines with extra components that allow them to realistically simulate major battle damage for the trainees to repair. Starfleet's all about realism on these trips, which is part of the reason why their simulators often burst into flames when the cadets screw up; realism in a safe environment is fairly difficult to achieve and would require equipment far more specialized than most starships actually carry.

Since the Excelsior had the gear for the duration of Sulu's 3 year mission then the E-A carrying the same kind of gear would suggest that Starfleet was making that a standard load and/or the E-A was going to or already does patrol near the Klingons, IMHO.
Which begs the question: What was Enterprise doing in Spacedock again, with Kirk and crew three months from retirement, and inexplicably in need of a helmsman? That, to me, always suggested that Kirk pretty much grabbed his entire bridge crew -- Spock et al -- from the Academy faculty lounge, kicked off (most of) the cadets and then went on his mission with a volunteer helmsman who may or may not have just finished training on that very same ship two semesters ago.
I don't think we can trust the shading and shadows. After all, the torpedo hit brightens the starboard side of the starboard nacelle, which is just ludicrous.
austen_pierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3 2013, 02:54 AM   #205
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Not really. The expanding gas cloud that wraps around the back of the saucer isn't symmetrical to a center impact point (it goes all the way from 2 o'clock to 7 o'clock). If it hit more starboard of the saucer then the hit would be visible
It would not. The aft-starboard portion of the saucer is still obscured behind the hump (containing decks 3 and 4 above the rim).
If it hit there, again, why is the 1st frame of the explosion NOT lighting up the front rim of impulse deck and only the port side?


Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Incorrect. At no point in the entire process is ONLY the portside rim illuminated. The impulse deck ceases to be visible during the actual explosion; the first frame where we can see it again is this one:

That's the forward starboard rim.

That light, by the way, isn't coming from a "gas cloud" wrapping around the saucer, it's coming from the actual impact point; the secondary "sparkly" effects are absent in this frame.
See that's the lighting on the rim we should have seen at the beginning of the explosion but it's not there. It only shows up after the explosion and it's sporadic along with the other secondary sparks.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It doesn't. That's just an estimate of the torpedo's flight path: right to left, top to bottom. The "origin" of the weapon is a point behind above and to the right of the frame; spatially, this means the torpedo passed into the image above and to the right of the camera's POV (since the camera is closer to the Enterprise than the ship that fired it).
I figured you had made a guess at it. When the torpedo path is corrected for it won't hit the bridge area.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Which still puts the impact point on the starboard-aft side: for all five frames the torpedo is visible, it is IN FRONT of the bridge dome in four of them and explodes on the 5th. We can tell from the glare on hull where the torpedo actually is; when it actually explodes, it is still on the starboard side of the dome.
So we have a conundrum. The 1st frame of the explosion lights up the port side impulse rim indicating a impact point on the port side forward of the impulse deck and also lighting the starboard aft side bridge module indicating a hit just aft and starboard of the bridge module. We can circle around this for a while but suspect we're just going to have to agree to disagree here.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The military doesn't work that way. By the time cadets are in a position to "do it for real" in a live fire situation, they are no longer cadets. Active duty soldiers and officers in the field train continually whenever they're not engaged in combat, sometimes in proving grounds and designated training areas, but most of the time in shipboard drills and exercises.

FYI, Starfleet doesn't work that way either.
Then Starfleet in TWOK-era doesn't operate the way you think it should? These cadets had a ship that had live weapons, working shields and transporters, etc.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Wesley Crusher, for example, was trained to use the helm console on the Enterprise and various pieces of Starfleet equipment before he ever attended the academy.
Wesley got practical experience that helped him test into the Academy and get Academy credit. How TNG handles actual cadets and a training ship could be different since it's decades after TWOK.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Even the highly unusual case of Red Squad on the USS Valiant -- a ship that arguably they would have crewed after graduation -- was assigned to "circumnavigate the Federation," not to chart unknown planets along the periphery.
Yet it's a modern ship used for training regardless of the training mission.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
You don't go on a training mission to learn how to explore space. You go on a training mission to learn how to LIVE in space.
And part of living in space is performing their job functions which some happen to be exploring planets.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Whether the Enterprise was under Kirk's command or not is irrelevant as it wouldn't indicate her status prior to the mission.
It would, actually. Who, after all, was commanding the ship BEFORE Kirk took it out and where exactly is he during the mission?

If it's Spock in command, then Enterprise is probably still performing the same mission as last time ("As a teacher, on a training cruise, am I content to command the Enterprise..."). If it's anyone else in command... where is he?
If Spock was in command and she was a training ship then the Enterprise still ended up carrying gaseous anomaly equipment like the Excelsior. (And live photon torpedoes.)

If someone else was in command of the Enterprise and she performed a different mission, she still ended up carrying gaseous anomaly equipment like the Excelsior. (And live photon torpedoes.)

Regardless of what she was prior to TUC, she ended up having gaseous anomaly equipment like the Excelsior. (And live photon torpedoes )

Circle this back to TWOK, if in TUC she was a training ship and still carried exploration equipment like gaseous anomaly equipment like other modern ships as the Excelsior then the TWOK training ship would've been carrying applicable exploration equipment as well.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The main point is that if she was obsolete or unable to escort the Klingon delegation 900 light years to Earth they could've had Kirk command another ship.
Being obsolete and being unable to escort Kronos-1 are mutually exclusive concepts.
Ah, so you consider "obsolete" as in out-dated technology but still able to operate as an active duty ship and perform her intended roles including escorting a Klingon Battlecruiser and protecting her against enemy ships wishing to disrupt the talks (and carry the non-obsolete gaseous anomaly equipment that Excelsior had)?
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3 2013, 04:34 AM   #206
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Not really. The expanding gas cloud that wraps around the back of the saucer isn't symmetrical to a center impact point (it goes all the way from 2 o'clock to 7 o'clock). If it hit more starboard of the saucer then the hit would be visible
It would not. The aft-starboard portion of the saucer is still obscured behind the hump (containing decks 3 and 4 above the rim).
If it hit there, again, why is the 1st frame of the explosion NOT lighting up the front rim of impulse deck and only the port side?
It ISN'T lighting up the port side.

See that's the lighting on the rim we should have seen at the beginning of the explosion...
At the point of the explosion -- the tiny "flashpoint" at impact -- it lights up the entire saucer, most prominently on the starboard side of the bridge dome.

So we have a conundrum. The 1st frame of the explosion lights up the port side impulse rim
No it doesn't.

Then Starfleet in TWOK-era doesn't operate the way you think it should? These cadets had a ship that had live weapons, working shields and transporters, etc.
None of which they had occasion to USE until a genuine emergency popped up. Unless you think "Find a wayward Klingon warship and shoot torpedoes at it" was part of their itinerary (and therefore the reason they had live torpedoes on board), you're not making much of a point.

And part of living in space is performing their job functions which some happen to be exploring planets.
Yes, because "in space" and "on a planet" are totally the same thing.

Besides, you know as well as I do that 90% of all away missions involve the Captain, the First Officer, Chief Medical officer and one or more of the senior bridge crew. Of the other 400+ crewmen on the ship, only a handful of them ever get picked for an away mission, and no one EVER gets two. Considering how they PERFORM on those missions, I don't think we should assume an over-abundance of field training.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The main point is that if she was obsolete or unable to escort the Klingon delegation 900 light years to Earth they could've had Kirk command another ship.
Being obsolete and being unable to escort Kronos-1 are mutually exclusive concepts.
Ah, so you consider "obsolete" as in out-dated technology but still able to operate as an active duty ship and perform her intended roles including escorting a Klingon Battlecruiser and protecting her against enemy ships
Enterprise wasn't there for protection (and even then, utterly failed to do so). Its assignment was almost entirely symbolic in nature: Kirk has a reputation for being a badass, and the Enterprise has a reputation for being Kirk's ship. Reputation is everything to the Klingons; a rogue general would actually be more likely to attack the Excelsior than the Enterprise.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3 2013, 02:14 PM   #207
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It would not. The aft-starboard portion of the saucer is still obscured behind the hump (containing decks 3 and 4 above the rim).
If it hit there, again, why is the 1st frame of the explosion NOT lighting up the front rim of impulse deck and only the port side?
It ISN'T lighting up the port side.
It IS lighting up the port side rim but not the front or starboard rim.


Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
At the point of the explosion -- the tiny "flashpoint" at impact -- it lights up the entire saucer, most prominently on the starboard side of the bridge dome.
At Frame 5 when the explosion begins it lights up the port side rim of the impulse deck and the starboard aft of the bridge dome.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
No it doesn't.
Yes it does. We can go infinitely back and forth about this

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
None of which they had occasion to USE until a genuine emergency popped up. Unless you think "Find a wayward Klingon warship and shoot torpedoes at it" was part of their itinerary (and therefore the reason they had live torpedoes on board), you're not making much of a point.
You can fire live torpedoes at a target drone or random asteroid that is in your way. They have the live equipment when you believe they should not have therefore your point needs revising or it's just not correct.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Yes, because "in space" and "on a planet" are totally the same thing.
If living in space involves flying to another planet to explore then living in space includes knowing how to beam down and up and having exploration gear.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Besides, you know as well as I do that 90% of all away missions involve the Captain, the First Officer, Chief Medical officer and one or more of the senior bridge crew. Of the other 400+ crewmen on the ship, only a handful of them ever get picked for an away mission, and no one EVER gets two. Considering how they PERFORM on those missions, I don't think we should assume an over-abundance of field training.
That doesn't help your argument. If 90% of time the bridge crew goes on a field mission then they will definitely need to have training on beam down and exploration while on a training ship.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Being obsolete and being unable to escort Kronos-1 are mutually exclusive concepts.
Ah, so you consider "obsolete" as in out-dated technology but still able to operate as an active duty ship and perform her intended roles including escorting a Klingon Battlecruiser and protecting her against enemy ships
Enterprise wasn't there for protection
It was there to escort the ship back and protect the Klingons. Using your argument that they were there to symbolically ward of a rogue general from attacking would apply to the escort mission.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
(and even then, utterly failed to do so).
Failure of mission doesn't change that it is an escort mission

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Its assignment was almost entirely symbolic in nature: Kirk has a reputation for being a badass, and the Enterprise has a reputation for being Kirk's ship. Reputation is everything to the Klingons; a rogue general would actually be more likely to attack the Excelsior than the Enterprise.
So the Enterprise is a badass obsolete ship that rogue Klingon generals are afraid to attack? I guess that could work since Klingons keep the same ship design around for 100 years.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 3 2013, 07:19 PM   #208
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post

If it hit there, again, why is the 1st frame of the explosion NOT lighting up the front rim of impulse deck and only the port side?
It ISN'T lighting up the port side.
It IS lighting up the port side rim but not the front or starboard rim.
I'm looking right at the image you posted and at my own DVD player. The port rim is not brightened. There's the beginnings of a fireball partially obscuring it, but that's not at all the same thing.

You can fire live torpedoes at a target drone or random asteroid that is in your way.
Which would still not teach you anything about how to use them in combat. The purpose of having live ordnance on a training vessel is to teach cadets how to HANDLE it, not how to fire it.

If living in space involves flying to another planet to explore...
It's the "fly to" part that they're training for, not ground operations. IRL, routine operations aboard a ship at sea is literally the ONLY thing that cannot be simulated realistically in a training program; accordingly, it is the only reason modern navies even have training ships.

That doesn't help your argument. If 90% of time the bridge crew goes on a field mission then they will definitely need to have training on beam down...
Except the only person on the ship who's being trained for permanent bridge duty is Saavik, who is technically ALREADY an officer in Starfleet anyway (and therefore goes on the NON-Training away mission to Regula-1). Meanwhile, Uhura's at communications, Spock's at the science console, McCoy's in sickbay and Sulu's at the helm. Which means the only people on the Enterprise who might go on an away mission aren't even trainees.

It was there to escort the ship back and protect the Klingons. Using your argument that they were there to symbolically ward of a rogue general from attacking would apply to the escort mission.
Which has nothing much to do with the capabilities of the Enterprise. Starfleet was letting Kirk's reputation do the fighting for him; if the Klingons decided to actually take a shot at Gorkon there isn't (and in the end, wasn't) much that Enterprise could really do to stop them.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
(and even then, utterly failed to do so).
Failure of mission doesn't change that it is an escort mission
You seem confused. You're asserting that the Enterprise couldn't have been obsolete because it was given escort mission. Since Enterprise wound up spectacularly FAILING that mission, that's hardly a valid argument.

We don't know for sure if a newer/more advanced starship would have proven adequate for the job (could newer sensors/computers have penetrated Chang's new cloak??) but we know for sure that Enterprise was NOT, and Gorkon fell victim to EXACTLY the kind of back-stabby sabotage that Enterprise was supposed to deter.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Its assignment was almost entirely symbolic in nature: Kirk has a reputation for being a badass, and the Enterprise has a reputation for being Kirk's ship. Reputation is everything to the Klingons; a rogue general would actually be more likely to attack the Excelsior than the Enterprise.
So the Enterprise is a badass obsolete ship that rogue Klingon generals are afraid to attack? I guess that could work since Klingons keep the same ship design around for 100 years.
200 years, if you believe "Unexpected."

But even that assumes that the Klingons were in any position to know that Enterprise was obsolete, even if it DID make a difference, which it probably wouldn't. Klingons tend not to be as technically minded as their human counterparts, and they're probably genre savvy enough to realize that Enterprise's plot armor is thicker than any other ship in the fleet.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 4 2013, 01:44 AM   #209
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It ISN'T lighting up the port side.
It IS lighting up the port side rim but not the front or starboard rim.
I'm looking right at the image you posted and at my own DVD player. The port rim is not brightened. There's the beginnings of a fireball partially obscuring it, but that's not at all the same thing.
The port rim is brightened, especially the far port (left). The beginnings of the fireball has increased the rim lighting.

For grins, I also added in the trajectory using the torpedo sparkle lines to find the center point for each frame. The torpedo on frame 5 at the start of the explosion is a bit high indicating that it may have detonated above the hull or got further back to the port side of the impulse deck than originally thought.



Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Which would still not teach you anything about how to use them in combat. The purpose of having live ordnance on a training vessel is to teach cadets how to HANDLE it, not how to fire it.
If they aren't trained on how to fire it then they are taught an incomplete way of handling it. You even make the argument that IRL, they use recoverable munitions. In TWOK, they happen to have live torpedoes.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It's the "fly to" part that they're training for, not ground operations. IRL, routine operations aboard a ship at sea is literally the ONLY thing that cannot be simulated realistically in a training program; accordingly, it is the only reason modern navies even have training ships.
Had it not occurred to you that routine operations aboard a starship in space would involve space operations such as making orbit, scanning the planet, selecting a beam down point and beaming down a survey party? And beaming them up if they come under duress?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Except the only person on the ship who's being trained for permanent bridge duty is Saavik, who is technically ALREADY an officer in Starfleet anyway (and therefore goes on the NON-Training away mission to Regula-1). Meanwhile, Uhura's at communications, Spock's at the science console, McCoy's in sickbay and Sulu's at the helm. Which means the only people on the Enterprise who might go on an away mission aren't even trainees.
Technically, once the ship went on active duty I doubt they were still training. In anycase, one of the bridge cadets ended up going on an active duty away mission, so if they were still on a training cruise that would be one of their assignments since it's part of their job in space.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Which has nothing much to do with the capabilities of the Enterprise. Starfleet was letting Kirk's reputation do the fighting for him; if the Klingons decided to actually take a shot at Gorkon there isn't (and in the end, wasn't) much that Enterprise could really do to stop them.
Since the Excelsior wasn't able to detect the cloaked BOP I doubt any ship could have protected Gorkon's ship. And it didn't help that it was an inside job. But, their failure isn't evidence that the ship couldn't have protected Gorkon's ship from a conventional, non-inside job attack.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
You seem confused. You're asserting that the Enterprise couldn't have been obsolete because it was given escort mission. Since Enterprise wound up spectacularly FAILING that mission, that's hardly a valid argument.
Until you are able to show the Enterprise failing against a conventional attack that isn't aided by inside men then you'd have a point. (A fire-while-cloaked BOP prototype isn't conventional.) But right now your argument isn't valid at all.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
We don't know for sure if a newer/more advanced starship would have proven adequate for the job (could newer sensors/computers have penetrated Chang's new cloak??) but we know for sure that Enterprise was NOT, and Gorkon fell victim to EXACTLY the kind of back-stabby sabotage that Enterprise was supposed to deter.
The Excelsior wasn't able to detect the cloaked BOP. How exactly would the crew of the Enterprise or Excelsior deter sabotage from within its ranks?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Its assignment was almost entirely symbolic in nature: Kirk has a reputation for being a badass, and the Enterprise has a reputation for being Kirk's ship. Reputation is everything to the Klingons; a rogue general would actually be more likely to attack the Excelsior than the Enterprise.
So the Enterprise is a badass obsolete ship that rogue Klingon generals are afraid to attack? I guess that could work since Klingons keep the same ship design around for 100 years.
200 years, if you believe "Unexpected."

But even that assumes that the Klingons were in any position to know that Enterprise was obsolete, even if it DID make a difference, which it probably wouldn't. Klingons tend not to be as technically minded as their human counterparts, and they're probably genre savvy enough to realize that Enterprise's plot armor is thicker than any other ship in the fleet.
Plot armor trumps arguments of being obsolete
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 4 2013, 07:35 PM   #210
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
The port rim is brightened, especially the far port (left). The beginnings of the fireball has increased the rim lighting.
I just realized what you call "brightening" is, in fact, the fireball itself. This is incorrect: the "far port" of the impulse deck is not even visible behind the fireball and certainly isn't "brightened" by it.

You're also failing to account for the fact that the that same flash illuminates the starboard side of the bridge dome in the same frame, and the fact that the starboard side of the impulse deck is illuminated by the glow from the impact point.

For grins, I also added in the trajectory using the torpedo sparkle lines to find the center point for each frame. The torpedo on frame 5 at the start of the explosion is a bit high indicating that it may have detonated above the hull or got further back to the port side of the impulse deck than originally thought.
In order for that "a bit high" position to illuminate the bridge dome the way that it does, it would have to be just aft the "17" on the "NCC0-1701" behind the observation lounge.

Which is, I'm sure you've noticed, directly along your projected flight path.

That striking position would put it close enough to the putative position of the computer core for blast/radiation effects to disable the core altogether. Physical damage to the computer gives you a loss of vessel function and additional damage from the torpedo impact starves the ship of main power. A strike in the impulse deck wouldn't actually have that effect, primarily because the impulse engines are NOT in engineering, nor are the computer systems that control the engines anywhere near that part of the ship. In that scenario, the automation system would likely be the ONLY thing on the ship still functioning.

If they aren't trained on how to fire it
They ARE trained on how to fire it. That's what simulators are for (and also battle drills in the field). Training vessels are not for teaching cadets how to use the ship's weapons, they're for teaching them how to MAINTAIN them on a day to day basis.

Another real world parallel: aviators on training carriers do not conduct scramble drills, mock airstrikes or air-to-air engagement practices. They use those carriers mainly to practice LANDING.

Had it not occurred to you that routine operations aboard a starship in space would involve space operations such as making orbit, scanning the planet, selecting a beam down point and beaming down a survey party? And beaming them up if they come under duress?
And 90% of the crew isn't involved in ANY of those operations. Moreover, even the 30 to 40 people on board who ARE involved spend the majority of their time performing other shipboard duties between planets; your starship will be in space for weeks, sometimes months at a time before it ever gets near another planet. At those times, running the ship remains a full-time job, and there's ALOT that midshipmen and mechanics have to keep track of every minute of every day, shift after shift, and even BETWEEN shifts.

THAT is what training ships are for: not to teach trainees the exciting parts of their job, but the boring/repetitive/tedious jobs that make the exciting part possible in the first place. It's not until the advent of holodecks a century later that Starfleet officers can spend the bulk of their free time dicking around on the holodeck.

Technically, once the ship went on active duty I doubt they were still training.
They were still TRAINEES to be sure. Their status doesn't change just because their ship got commandeered by an Admiral to take care of what was expected to be a minor emergency.

In anycase, one of the bridge cadets ended up going on an active duty away mission
That would be Lieutenant Saavik, the ship's only command school candidate, who is already an officer in Starfleet.

Since the Excelsior wasn't able to detect the cloaked BOP I doubt any ship could have protected Gorkon's ship. And it didn't help that it was an inside job.
That's just it: if the Klingons were going to take out Gorkon it would be, by definition, an inside job. Enterprise was there as a deterrent to keep the Klingons from trying something. That deterrent failed.

Obviously Starfleet didn't expect General Chang or somebody to send a whole squadron of warships after Gorkon (as Duras did when he went after Gowron) because a single starship wouldn't be able to handle that situation anyway. But the presence of Enterprise would have discouraged any would-be rivals from trying anything in the first place.

Until you are able to show the Enterprise failing against a conventional attack...
Nothing needs to be shown. Enterprise was inadequate for the task it was assigned. The reasons for it are many and nuanced, but it remains the fact that her being assigned to escort duty is NOT evidence that it was still front line material.

Plot armor trumps arguments of being obsolete
An obsolete starship equipped with plot armor remains obsolete, even if it IS totally bad ass. Indeed, the only thing more powerful than plot armor is technobabble.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:26 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.