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Old September 3 2013, 03:58 PM   #16
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
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The Doctor had a desire to grow beyond his programming....is that something common among all the EMH mark 1s? Is that desire part of their programming? Do they all have a desire to learn and grow? or was the doctor unique in that aspect. If there was a second ship somewhere that left their mark 1 running for as long as Voyager did, would he also develop interest in art and music and such?
Weren't some of those questions addressed in "It's Only A Paper Moon?" Vic Fontaine's extended period of operation led him to deepen his understanding of human psychology and a desire to manipulate his environment (at least within the confines of 1960s America).
no, Vic was always aware that he was a hologram, he never had a desire to change anything. The only thing that changed for Vic in that episode was that from that point on Quark said he would keep him running all the time
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Old September 3 2013, 03:58 PM   #17
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

The "matter of programming" argument could just as easily be applied to Data in any case.
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Old September 3 2013, 04:04 PM   #18
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

I always thought Vic was every bit as sentient as the Doctor. Just different in their treatment and goals. From day one the Doctor was treated as a tool despite his brilliance. I think this is what led to his ego inflating, the desire to show everyone how invaluable and capable he is. Vic was treated as roughly an equal by everyone from day one. While the Doctor wanted to expand his horizons in the real world, doing new things such as singing, holowriting and photography, Vic just wanted the freedom to explore his holographic world beyond being turned on only to sing.
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Old September 3 2013, 04:14 PM   #19
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

KaraBear wrote: View Post
Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
The Doctor had a desire to grow beyond his programming....is that something common among all the EMH mark 1s? Is that desire part of their programming? Do they all have a desire to learn and grow? or was the doctor unique in that aspect. If there was a second ship somewhere that left their mark 1 running for as long as Voyager did, would he also develop interest in art and music and such?
Weren't some of those questions addressed in "It's Only A Paper Moon?" Vic Fontaine's extended period of operation led him to deepen his understanding of human psychology and a desire to manipulate his environment (at least within the confines of 1960s America).
no, Vic was always aware that he was a hologram, he never had a desire to change anything. The only thing that changed for Vic in that episode was that from that point on Quark said he would keep him running all the time
You asked whether continuous operation of a holgraphic program, one that is programmed to adapt and learn from its circumstances (which both EMH and Fontaine do, albeit to different effect), affects their development. Vic literally says so in the script. Did he need to develop an interest in music? No, but he develops an interest in economics. The fact that he doesn't intend to live outside the confines of simulated Las Vegas isn't material. The episode even raises the question of Vic having free will (though it doesn't answer it). Does the program need to desire to grow in order to be alive, no less sentient? I guess someone who sits at home, watching TV, could be said not to be alive in a figurative sense (which is what Nog does in the episode), but it cannot be said that he or she is not living.
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Old September 3 2013, 04:17 PM   #20
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

R. Star wrote: View Post
I always thought Vic was every bit as sentient as the Doctor. Just different in their treatment and goals. From day one the Doctor was treated as a tool despite his brilliance. I think this is what led to his ego inflating, the desire to show everyone how invaluable and capable he is. Vic was treated as roughly an equal by everyone from day one. While the Doctor wanted to expand his horizons in the real world, doing new things such as singing, holowriting and photography, Vic just wanted the freedom to explore his holographic world beyond being turned on only to sing.
I think that's a fair assessment. Where they really differed was in terms of the contexts in which they operated. Vic received the appreciation that the EMH strove to win. Moreover, the EMH, dealing with questions of life and death in his work, might have approached his own development more thoughtfully.
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Old September 3 2013, 04:24 PM   #21
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
Bad thoughts wrote: View Post

Weren't some of those questions addressed in "It's Only A Paper Moon?" Vic Fontaine's extended period of operation led him to deepen his understanding of human psychology and a desire to manipulate his environment (at least within the confines of 1960s America).
no, Vic was always aware that he was a hologram, he never had a desire to change anything. The only thing that changed for Vic in that episode was that from that point on Quark said he would keep him running all the time
You asked whether continuous operation of a holgraphic program, one that is programmed to adapt and learn from its circumstances (which both EMH and Fontaine do, albeit to different effect), affects their development. Vic literally says so in the script. Did he need to develop an interest in music? No, but he develops an interest in economics. The fact that he doesn't intend to live outside the confines of simulated Las Vegas isn't material. The episode even raises the question of Vic having free will (though it doesn't answer it). Does the program need to desire to grow in order to be alive, no less sentient? I guess someone who sits at home, watching TV, could be said not to be alive in a figurative sense (which is what Nog does in the episode), but it cannot be said that he or she is not living.
vic didn't really develop an inerest in economics, doing the books was part of his programming

my question is, is the desire to grow a true unique desire, or is it programmed into them, is there a line of code that tells them to desire to grow beyond their initial programming
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Old September 3 2013, 04:35 PM   #22
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

She seems "so fickle" because she was poorly written, thus inconsistent and ill-defined.
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Old September 4 2013, 10:06 AM   #23
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

KaraBear wrote: View Post
the tricky thing is that is he really sentient or is it all just a matter of programming. Take away a few lines of code and he can no longer sing. Take away a few lines of code and he can't speak, take away a few lines of code and his whole personality is changed
A rather philosophical question! I mean, ultimately how do you know anyone is truly sentient and not just a clever simulation?

The Doctor certainly passes the Turing test. And, well, you can probably change a human's personality or eliminate their ability to sing if you zapped the right part of the brain.
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Old September 4 2013, 01:29 PM   #24
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

Stoo wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
the tricky thing is that is he really sentient or is it all just a matter of programming. Take away a few lines of code and he can no longer sing. Take away a few lines of code and he can't speak, take away a few lines of code and his whole personality is changed
A rather philosophical question! I mean, ultimately how do you know anyone is truly sentient and not just a clever simulation?

The Doctor certainly passes the Turing test. And, well, you can probably change a human's personality or eliminate their ability to sing if you zapped the right part of the brain.
absolutely, people with brain injuries sometimes loose abilities depending on the part of the brain that was affected
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