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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old September 1 2013, 06:09 AM   #1
Lighthammer
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Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

You know, I just got to wondering --- there are a number of episodes where Janeway is really gun on AI rights (especially where the Doctor is concerned) and other episodes where she all but rails against AIs having any rights.

Why is she so fickle over this? Is this just really bad writing for the character?
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Old September 1 2013, 06:23 AM   #2
Dr. Sevrin
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

Yeah, it's like different people keep putting words into her mouth.

Writers change, story editors change, and they all have their own take on every character. The actors can argue about stuff they don't agree if they think it's out of character, but those arguments can be ignored by everyone else.
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Old September 1 2013, 08:52 AM   #3
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

Yeah, Janeway's really bipolar at times.

"I'll destroy this ship rather than give the Kazon a replicator!"

later...

"Oh you took our ship over and brutalized our crew to fulfill your violent fantasies for weeks? Here's your holodeck technology, please don't bother us again Hirogen!"
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Old September 1 2013, 08:59 AM   #4
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

^The interesting thing about that is isn't that what the Kazon did. I mean the Herogin didn't strand the voyager crew on a baron planet so maybe that was the difference.
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Old September 1 2013, 09:05 AM   #5
R. Star
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

Well Janeway said she'd destroy the ship a few episodes before the stranding. The only difference is the Kazon were too dumb to even operate the replicator without Seska's help... whereas the Hirogen, were at least slightly smarter.
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Old September 1 2013, 02:46 PM   #6
Dr. Sevrin
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

Seska should have just slit Cullah's throat and taken over.
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Old September 1 2013, 05:38 PM   #7
R. Star
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

Seska can't individually seduce the whole race. That's all it was too since females technically had no standing among Kazon.
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Old September 1 2013, 07:24 PM   #8
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
^The interesting thing about that is isn't that what the Kazon did. I mean the Herogin didn't strand the voyager crew on a baron planet so maybe that was the difference.

Except Janeway made the replicator remark early on, well before the events of Basics, and Kazon hadn't treated them any worse than the Hirogen up to that point unless you count spreading rumors about Voyager being a death ship.
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Old September 1 2013, 07:38 PM   #9
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

Inconsistent character development on VOY? I am shocked. Shocked I tell you

The series suffered for poor character development and writing, so hardly surprising. Plus its a subject that has no real importance. Data deserved equal rights and status since he is so complex and unique (with the exception of Lore that is), but holograms simply aren't. They're tools, nothing more and trying to make it an issue was just dull and unoriginal.
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Old September 2 2013, 12:08 AM   #10
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

Melakon wrote: View Post
Yeah, it's like different people keep putting words into her mouth.

Writers change, story editors change, and they all have their own take on every character. The actors can argue about stuff they don't agree if they think it's out of character, but those arguments can be ignored by everyone else.
TITCR

The studio didn't want consistency, they wanted individual episodes, and whatever made that particular story okay was what they wanted. They didn't care about the characters, or even about the fans.

What the studio did to Voyager as a show with this attitude would not fly with many shows anymore.

I feel bad for the actors who wanted more, I mean everyone runs into crap like this on a job, but ours aren't so public. We have our frustrations in private, these people have them out there for everyone to see and criticize without having the full facts.
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Old September 2 2013, 04:36 AM   #11
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

I think the Doctor had the same argument Data did. Not at the beginning when he was first activated, but after he'd been running for a while and his program had been rewriting itself on its own for a while. By the end of the series it's hard to make an argument for Data that doesn't apply to the Doctor.

Back in the Kazon arc they were still trying to carry the show with a consistent theme. By the time the Hirogen came around it was all about what they needed for the story they were telling at the time.
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Old September 2 2013, 09:35 PM   #12
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Yeah, Janeway's really bipolar at times.

"I'll destroy this ship rather than give the Kazon a replicator!"

later...

"Oh you took our ship over and brutalized our crew to fulfill your violent fantasies for weeks? Here's your holodeck technology, please don't bother us again Hirogen!"
I love Janeway, but I believe she did go against Starfleet protocol by "giving away" their holo-technology to the Hirogen just so they would stop doing what their species had already been doing for hundreds or thousands of years.

That said...if it stopped the Hirogen from killing everyone in their path, then I suppose holograms are a better alternative. Too bad they made the holograms so advanced that they became stronger and more cunning than the actual Hirogen. -_-

THAT said...I do believe that someone as sentient as the Doctor should be given somewhat equal rights. Where the line is drawn is a tricky one.
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Old September 3 2013, 03:40 PM   #13
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Yeah, Janeway's really bipolar at times.

"I'll destroy this ship rather than give the Kazon a replicator!"

later...

"Oh you took our ship over and brutalized our crew to fulfill your violent fantasies for weeks? Here's your holodeck technology, please don't bother us again Hirogen!"
I don't think this is a fair comparison.

giving the Kazon a replicator would alter the balance of power, it would make that sect more powerful than the others.

giving the hirogen the holotechnology wouldn't change any balance of power. Also the hirogen had been examining and learning about the technology for weeks, they had a good understanding of how it worked and would probably have been able to come up with their own eventually anyway
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Old September 3 2013, 03:42 PM   #14
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Yeah, Janeway's really bipolar at times.

"I'll destroy this ship rather than give the Kazon a replicator!"

later...

"Oh you took our ship over and brutalized our crew to fulfill your violent fantasies for weeks? Here's your holodeck technology, please don't bother us again Hirogen!"
I love Janeway, but I believe she did go against Starfleet protocol by "giving away" their holo-technology to the Hirogen just so they would stop doing what their species had already been doing for hundreds or thousands of years.

That said...if it stopped the Hirogen from killing everyone in their path, then I suppose holograms are a better alternative. Too bad they made the holograms so advanced that they became stronger and more cunning than the actual Hirogen. -_-

THAT said...I do believe that someone as sentient as the Doctor should be given somewhat equal rights. Where the line is drawn is a tricky one.
the tricky thing is that is he really sentient or is it all just a matter of programming. Take away a few lines of code and he can no longer sing. Take away a few lines of code and he can't speak, take away a few lines of code and his whole personality is changed

The Doctor had a desire to grow beyond his programming....is that something common among all the EMH mark 1s? Is that desire part of their programming? Do they all have a desire to learn and grow? or was the doctor unique in that aspect. If there was a second ship somewhere that left their mark 1 running for as long as Voyager did, would he also develop interest in art and music and such?
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Old September 3 2013, 03:54 PM   #15
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Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

KaraBear wrote: View Post
The Doctor had a desire to grow beyond his programming....is that something common among all the EMH mark 1s? Is that desire part of their programming? Do they all have a desire to learn and grow? or was the doctor unique in that aspect. If there was a second ship somewhere that left their mark 1 running for as long as Voyager did, would he also develop interest in art and music and such?
Weren't some of those questions addressed in "It's Only A Paper Moon?" Vic Fontaine's extended period of operation led him to deepen his understanding of human psychology and a desire to manipulate his environment (at least within the confines of 1960s America).
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