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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old March 9 2012, 02:58 AM   #586
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

More like "Hey guys, if you want to survive those Robo-Zombies and those Cthulu-wannabes why don't you think about working together? We'll give some advice if you want it and frankly it's the most sensible thing to do!"

A Delta...Cooperative then.
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Old March 9 2012, 09:49 PM   #587
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
More like "Hey guys, if you want to survive those Robo-Zombies and those Cthulu-wannabes why don't you think about working together? We'll give some advice if you want it and frankly it's the most sensible thing to do!"

A Delta...Cooperative then.
hahahhaha now that is realistic
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Old March 10 2012, 01:20 AM   #588
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Janeway accidentally establishing herself as a warlord?

Yup, that's all going to end well.
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Old March 10 2012, 01:24 AM   #589
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Let's just have an alternate series running at the same time as VOY with the Living Witness crew.
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Old March 10 2012, 05:40 AM   #590
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Oh, they were just outright evil.

I prefer a little conflict.

Road to Hell paved with good intentions... I mean look what happened to the Vulcans, they just stopped off to warn Zephram that his tail light was broken, and two hundred and 50 years later they're not just holding mans hand but propping up 150 worlds too timmid to nut up.

Dala built the foundations of the federation as a pozy scheme, but fatre that all collapsed, someone could have still used those alien ideal to build a new empire not bases on the protection of a tiny scout vessel like Voyager... How on earth coul the writers forget how unimpressive Voyager was when writing live fast and prosper?
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Old September 1 2013, 03:24 PM   #591
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Resurrecting an old thread because I wanted to comment on it, but wanted to see if such a thread existed first. I enjoy some of the Voyager stories, but I agree that the series rather weakened it. Species 8472 was ridiculously powerful, and it annoys me that the Borg were unable to utilize any creativity at all to develop a means of defeating them. Also, when Voyager destroyed the scout ship, it annoys me that the scouts tried to deactivate the photon torpedo. You'd think they could just beam it right back off their ship, and since they had demonstrated the ability to beam through shielding before (such as in FC), they could have even beamed it onto Voyager. And Seven of Nine's parents had a device that made them invisible to the Borg--that's pretty silly. The Borg were frightening and mysterious is TNG. In VOY they were predictable and weak. Kind of disappointing
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Old September 1 2013, 03:51 PM   #592
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

To be fair even TNG started to weaken the Borg a bit. If you set up a bg bad and have our herores defatiung them every few weeks then why are they considered the big bad. Even DW has fallen fowl of this critisim with it's use of the Daleks (though on the plus side the Time Lords were one of the more powerful races)
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Old September 1 2013, 08:21 PM   #593
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

In TNG we only ever saw the Borg fighting folks who were significantly weaker than them. VOY shows them fighting someone on their level, if not higher and revealed that they aren't that tough or intimidating to others on their level.
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Old September 3 2013, 02:17 PM   #594
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
To be fair even TNG started to weaken the Borg a bit. If you set up a bg bad and have our herores defatiung them every few weeks then why are they considered the big bad. Even DW has fallen fowl of this critisim with it's use of the Daleks (though on the plus side the Time Lords were one of the more powerful races)
They really only face them twice ship-to-ship: once when Q introduces them, then helps them get out of the jam, and once when they could have nearly destroyed earth if not for the fortuitous interference of the assimilated Jean-Luc. Minor encounters with Hugh and with the rogue Borg led by Lore don't seem to quite have the same oomph as a fight with an actual cube.

And Anwar, that's part of my problem. I don't really want anyone to match them, and if we do see such a match, it deflates the view that they are so unstoppable, especially if the way to defeat their opponent actually comes from Voyager personnel, IMHO.
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Old September 3 2013, 02:37 PM   #595
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

froot wrote: View Post
Hey, when you're on a budget, it's 1989, and all you've got on hand is some leftover tubing and Gorilla Glue and the writers want to make a social statement about the dangers of groupthink, you do what you gotta do.
I know this is an old thread, but I just have to say, when I get a signature, I so want to put this in it....
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Old September 3 2013, 03:36 PM   #596
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

this is one of those things about Voyager..everyone says oh they beat all these cubes, but they never did. They destroyed one little scout ship, and one other ship because they had assimilated crewmembers inside sabotaging it from the inside.
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Old September 3 2013, 06:49 PM   #597
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

KaraBear wrote: View Post
this is one of those things about Voyager..everyone says oh they beat all these cubes, but they never did. They destroyed one little scout ship, and one other ship because they had assimilated crewmembers inside sabotaging it from the inside.
I never said they were destroying them. I have said they were weakened beyond absurdity that they stopped being threatening.

Scorpion was an example of doing it right, even Seven by herself was threatening. Yet in this episode and the Gift, you think they'd send a Cube just to see what happened or get the modified nanoprobes. I mean 8472 might just come back and all. They later retconned they wanted Seven to join Voyager, though that never made much sense.

Infinite Regress... I guess the Borg just are okay with anyone salvaging through their ships and wouldn't send another ship to retrieve/destroy their technology. Wait... didn't they do that in TNG's I Borg? Oh who cares, it's not like anyone would try and use what's there to destroy the Collective or anything.

Dark Frontier... yeah they blow up the small ship. I can buy that. That was actually a great sequence and teaser. What I can't buy is not only do they manage to casually board the Cube, despite them knowing they're coming, but they manage to invade the Unicomplex, ferry away Seven right out of the Queen's enclave and get away all without a scratch. I suppose the Queen let them get away again....

Drone... I don't buy at all they'd leave Voyager alone just because One died. They should've been going after Voyager full force even after that. If nothing else to make sure Voyager can't produce something that powerful again. Not to mention since apparently a few stray nanoprobes in the mobile emitter can produce superborg, they would've nabbed the very technological advantage they wanted anyways. Guess they were just too lazy to bother being through.

Collective... well how nice of them to leave another depot of technology for anyone to happen upon. It's not like the Borg go out of their way to collect the dead or anything... that was in TNG... oh wait, wasn't Seven also rescued from a disaster by them? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! Guess the pathogen made them too lazy to follow up on the little things like that.

Unimatrix Zero... oh boy. Now this is where I can say unequivocally the Borg were dumb. A couple renegade drones on a single Cube? Suuuure... blow it up. That's what we can expect from a race who values efficiency. As efficient as dropping a nuke on New York City because you think their might be a terrorist cell there. To say nothing of the "advanced tactical cube" that Voyager fights without harm... not only that, but they made it shut down for repairs for a few hours. But Voyager didn't weaken the Borg...

Then in Endgame they just stopped pretending, turned on Godmode and went a Borg killin! Yeehaw!
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Old September 3 2013, 07:56 PM   #598
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

R. Star wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
this is one of those things about Voyager..everyone says oh they beat all these cubes, but they never did. They destroyed one little scout ship, and one other ship because they had assimilated crewmembers inside sabotaging it from the inside.
I never said they were destroying them. I have said they were weakened beyond absurdity that they stopped being threatening.
I disagree with this entirely, I think they were never weakened

Scorpion was an example of doing it right, even Seven by herself was threatening. Yet in this episode and the Gift, you think they'd send a Cube just to see what happened or get the modified nanoprobes. I mean 8472 might just come back and all. They later retconned they wanted Seven to join Voyager, though that never made much sense.
I agree with you here

Infinite Regress... I guess the Borg just are okay with anyone salvaging through their ships and wouldn't send another ship to retrieve/destroy their technology. Wait... didn't they do that in TNG's I Borg? Oh who cares, it's not like anyone would try and use what's there to destroy the Collective or anything.
they talked a lot about the possibility of the Borg comming to retrieve the debris

SEVEN: It was a Borg vessel. There are tetryon particles in the debris consistent with the atmosphere inside a Cube.
CHAKOTAY: Any idea what destroyed it?
SEVEN: We would need to run close range scans of the hull fragments.
KIM: Unless we alter course, we'll get our chance. The debris field's directly ahead.
JANEWAY: Then I suggest we cut a wide berth. Chances are the Borg will send more vessels to investigate. Alter course to avoid the debris. If that's all.

when they realized they had to go to the debris field anyway...
CHAKOTAY: Any sign of Borg vessels?
PARIS: No, sir. We're the first ones here.

they acknowlege the borg might come back for the debris again....
JANEWAY: We're talking about the heart of a Borg cube. I'd rather not take it inside my ship. Can you disable it remotely?
SEVEN: Yes, but I would need several days. The Borg may return by then. I recommend we take the vinculum and leave this region immediately.
JANEWAY: Tuvok, prepare to beam it to Engineering. Erect a level ten forcefield and maintain constant surveillance. The moment it poses a threat, send it back into space. Tom, as soon as it's aboard, get us out of here. Warp nine.
PARIS: Aye, Captain.
JANEWAY: I understand what you're going through, and I want to help you in every way I can, but the safety of this crew is my first responsibility. We haven't had the best of luck with the Borg.

I could post a lot more, but I don't want to take up much more space with this....so yeah, they knew the borg would be coming back and they were working in a hurry

Dark Frontier... yeah they blow up the small ship. I can buy that. That was actually a great sequence and teaser. What I can't buy is not only do they manage to casually board the Cube, despite them knowing they're coming, but they manage to invade the Unicomplex, ferry away Seven right out of the Queen's enclave and get away all without a scratch. I suppose the Queen let them get away again....
did they know they were coming? boarding a borg ship and wandering around isn't new to voyager

Drone... I don't buy at all they'd leave Voyager alone just because One died. They should've been going after Voyager full force even after that. If nothing else to make sure Voyager can't produce something that powerful again. Not to mention since apparently a few stray nanoprobes in the mobile emitter can produce superborg, they would've nabbed the very technological advantage they wanted anyways. Guess they were just too lazy to bother being through.
personally I think this is just you nitpicking. Once the thing they were afte was gone, I don't think they would purposely go out of their way to get voyager

Collective... well how nice of them to leave another depot of technology for anyone to happen upon. It's not like the Borg go out of their way to collect the dead or anything... that was in TNG... oh wait, wasn't Seven also rescued from a disaster by them? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! Guess the pathogen made them too lazy to follow up on the little things like that.
the borg knew this cube was infected so they disconnected it and left it. if they went after it, it would spread to the rest of the collective.

Seven was rescued because she was a fully functioning drone, she wasn't infected with any pathogen.

Unimatrix Zero... oh boy. Now this is where I can say unequivocally the Borg were dumb. A couple renegade drones on a single Cube? Suuuure... blow it up. That's what we can expect from a race who values efficiency. As efficient as dropping a nuke on New York City because you think their might be a terrorist cell there. To say nothing of the "advanced tactical cube" that Voyager fights without harm... not only that, but they made it shut down for repairs for a few hours. But Voyager didn't weaken the Borg...
I never liked the concept of unimatrix zero, but they did NOT get away unharmed

Then in Endgame they just stopped pretending, turned on Godmode and went a Borg killin! Yeehaw!
lets not forget that in Endgame they had technology from the future
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Old September 3 2013, 08:01 PM   #599
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

CaptainMatt wrote: View Post
A good point. I always wondered why TNG only ever used one Borg cube in their stories, even in the First Contact feature. At least Voyager tried something different with multiple cubes and so on making an appearance at various points.
in first contact I think they were testing the federation. It took all the might of the fleet to destroy the one cube, and only because Picard knew a tactical place to aim. Now the Borg know that one ship is a threat, and five would be completely unstopable.

and in all fairness, why would they borg want to assimilate the federatin? they already know everything about them having assimilated Picard and various other officers, the federation's technology is not more advanced, so the borg have nothing to gain by going after the federation
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Old September 3 2013, 10:06 PM   #600
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

darth_ender wrote: View Post
And Anwar, that's part of my problem. I don't really want anyone to match them, and if we do see such a match, it deflates the view that they are so unstoppable, especially if the way to defeat their opponent actually comes from Voyager personnel, IMHO.
Why can't there be any matches for the Borg? Would you complain if we ever saw Q destroy a Borg Cube?

The Borg are not some unstoppable super-enemy, they are just Tough Cyborgs who are more advanced than the Federation. We've encountered several aliens throughout all of Trek that were more powerful than the Borg, so there's NO reason to treat them like something special.
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