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Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

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Old September 2 2013, 05:12 AM   #331
Santa Kang
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Star Trek has never shied away from rehashes in the past, so why would it be a "bad direction"? As I said, Star Trek has be reusing plots, characters and situations since it's beginnings. One of its more highly regarded episodes ("Balance of Terror") is lifted directly from a movie.(The Enemy Below) It's how the elements are used that's important, not the origin of the elements or if they've been used before. For my money, STID took elements from Space Seed and TWOK and created a new and interesting story.


Its never to soon for a poll. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a poll with that topic before ST09 came out.
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Old September 2 2013, 08:20 AM   #332
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Star Trek has been rehashing plots since season one of TOS. TMP was a rehash of "The Changeling". TWOK brought back a villain from TOS. TVH was a time travel story reminiscent of at least three TOS episodes. TNG and show that followed mixed and matched TOS characters. The Next Generation films desperately tried to duplicate the success of TWOK and TVH.

There was a kot of story in both of Abrams films. If someone can't see the story through the "explosions" I think the problem might lie with them.
I think you miss the point completely, it may have used similar plots in the past for episodes but we were still learning about the characters, a back story etc.

I can assure you there is no problem with me, I know what I'm watching, if you read my previous post you'd realise I said Abrams Star Trek 'could' have worked if it wasn't for Into Darkness, so mentioning 'both films' is irrelevant. Into Darkness offered us nothing new, I learnt nothing new. That is my point. Apart from Kirk 'dying' of radiation rather than Spock, it was just ooh big explosion and ohh more CGI.

You tell me where the new story is?
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Old September 2 2013, 04:15 PM   #333
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Kirk the Jerk wrote: View Post
Into Darkness offered us nothing new, I learnt nothing new.
All I can say is that I had the most fun with Trek since 1991 watching Star Trek Into Darkness. Which is why I go to the movies.

Trek is nearly fifty-years old, I'm not sure there's anything you could produce that wouldn't be similar to something the franchise has already done and it still be recognizably Star Trek.
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Old September 2 2013, 05:28 PM   #334
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

The "Prime Timeline" doesn't actually exist.

I think fans are making a distinction that exists nowhere except inside their own heads.

There is no a single cohesive overarching "prime" universe. Whether fans want to admit it or not, TMP was the first Trek reboot. The next film, TWOK, was another reboot. There is almost no reconciling Nick Meyer's Trek with Gene Roddenberry's. In Nick Meyer's Trek, Starfleet is unapologetically full military and Klingons have pink blood. TNG was Roddenberry rebooting himself, and the other spinoffs are derivative works created by other people. Fans consider all of this one vast universe only by ignoring the myriad contradictions between the various visions of the various creators and producers.

Abrams vision of Trek is no more or less valid than Nick Meyers'. And I say that as one who is not a fan of the Abrams movies. Let's just stop pretending that every derivative work of Trek to ever hit the airwaves or movie theater is all one unified whole. It ain't. It's no more one unified whole than the original Sherlock Holmes stories, the movies with Basil Rathbone, the new Sherlock with Cumberbatch, and the animated series SHERLOCK HOLMES IN THE 22ND CENTURY represent a unified whole.

I think the problem is -- and no insult is intended to anyone -- that some fans who call themselves Star Trek fans are really "Rick Berman Trek spinoff" fans. That was merely one vision of Star Trek; it had its day mostly in the 1990s, but that day is done. Star Trek needs to move on.

Again, I don't like the Abrams films, but I'm hopeful someday for a good reboot, with no baggage at all from any 1990s derivative TV series.
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Old September 2 2013, 05:53 PM   #335
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
The "Prime Timeline" doesn't actually exist.
Sure it does, there are several hundred hours of it.


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Old September 2 2013, 08:38 PM   #336
Kirk the Jerk
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
The "Prime Timeline" doesn't actually exist.

I think fans are making a distinction that exists nowhere except inside their own heads.

There is no a single cohesive overarching "prime" universe. Whether fans want to admit it or not, TMP was the first Trek reboot. The next film, TWOK, was another reboot. There is almost no reconciling Nick Meyer's Trek with Gene Roddenberry's. In Nick Meyer's Trek, Starfleet is unapologetically full military and Klingons have pink blood. TNG was Roddenberry rebooting himself, and the other spinoffs are derivative works created by other people. Fans consider all of this one vast universe only by ignoring the myriad contradictions between the various visions of the various creators and producers.

Abrams vision of Trek is no more or less valid than Nick Meyers'. And I say that as one who is not a fan of the Abrams movies. Let's just stop pretending that every derivative work of Trek to ever hit the airwaves or movie theater is all one unified whole. It ain't. It's no more one unified whole than the original Sherlock Holmes stories, the movies with Basil Rathbone, the new Sherlock with Cumberbatch, and the animated series SHERLOCK HOLMES IN THE 22ND CENTURY represent a unified whole.

I think the problem is -- and no insult is intended to anyone -- that some fans who call themselves Star Trek fans are really "Rick Berman Trek spinoff" fans. That was merely one vision of Star Trek; it had its day mostly in the 1990s, but that day is done. Star Trek needs to move on.

Again, I don't like the Abrams films, but I'm hopeful someday for a good reboot, with no baggage at all from any 1990s derivative TV series.
I understand what you're saying, but, regardless of having Klingons with pink blood etc. they all (for the most part) kept in line with what we knew about the characters and continued to build on them, on screen. All of them had a back story and again (for the most part) were well written and had a depth to them.

Nick Meyer's movies were all, pretty much, based in the middle of a war between Starfleet and the Klingon empire so it made sense that they were 'unapologetically military' in their approach.

It also made sense with new technology etc. that things would look differently than they did in the 60's and 70's so things like Klingon forehead ridges/blood colour was more an evolution than a reboot.

Abrams Trek, as others have mentioned, was meant to be a 'clean slate' reboot. For example The destruction of Vulcan, having Chekov from the start of the adventure, Scotty's sidekick etc. etc. Also his insistence that his movie would be called Star Trek and Star Trek: Into Darkness would be Star Trek 2 and not Star Trek 11/12 etc. He didn't want it to continue down that line as the others were.

I did enjoy Star Trek 2009. But why, after doing all of the hardwork, did he decide to almost just remake TWOK with a few bits added in. It just seemed such a lazy way to continue his version of Trek IMO.
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Old September 2 2013, 10:11 PM   #337
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

[QUOTE=Greg Cox;8536678][QUOTE=Timewalker;8536549]

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
You know, I keep vowing not to get sucked into one of these time sinks again ('cause, deadlines!), but then somebody insists (again) that all "real" fans reject the reboot or suggests that anybody who doesn't is some shallow newbie who doesn't know what Trek is really all about. Or doesn't have the right fannish credentials. Or isn't a fan for the "right" reasons.

If somebody likes or doesn't like the reboot, fine. But don't presume you speak for "the fans," no matter what side of the timeline you fall on!

So let's lay off the "More Trekkie than thou" stuff, please.

Alos, let's not delude ourselves into believing that the Star Trek that you think is 'better' is going to come back. Even if the next movie fails artistically and commercially, the kind of Star Trek you want won't be brought back just to suit aging fans who won't be living long enough to see any future Star Trek movies or TV shows (most likely). It will be the younger generations who've grown up with the most current Star Trek that Paramount and CBS are going to cater to. Face it: the Star Trek that you knew is finished (except for fan shows).
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Old September 3 2013, 12:40 AM   #338
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

^Except for fan shows, books, and games, which I think may last longer than the reboot, should part 3 fail.
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Old September 3 2013, 01:12 AM   #339
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
^Except for fan shows, books, and games, which I think may last longer than the reboot, should part 3 fail.
While books may be able to survive selling thirty or forty thousand copies, that number of viewers is no where near enough to keep a TV or movie series afloat.
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Old September 3 2013, 01:21 AM   #340
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

^If a new TV or movie series only brought in book fans, yeah, though that's unlikely.
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Old September 3 2013, 01:26 AM   #341
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Seems to me like we're wandering away from the OT here. The way I see it, the timeline doesn't affect the quality of the movies. You can tell good, bad, or mixed STAR TREK stories in either timeline. Or, maybe someday, another one.

STAR TREK is bigger than "canon" or "continuity." Merely setting a new movie or TV series in any particular continuity is no guarantee of quality--and is not necessarily a virtue in its own right. Execution matters more than the (relatively) trivial matter of what timeline it's set in.
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Old September 3 2013, 01:31 AM   #342
Santa Kang
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Kirk the Jerk wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Star Trek has been rehashing plots since season one of TOS. TMP was a rehash of "The Changeling". TWOK brought back a villain from TOS. TVH was a time travel story reminiscent of at least three TOS episodes. TNG and show that followed mixed and matched TOS characters. The Next Generation films desperately tried to duplicate the success of TWOK and TVH.

There was a kot of story in both of Abrams films. If someone can't see the story through the "explosions" I think the problem might lie with them.
I think you miss the point completely, it may have used similar plots in the past for episodes but we were still learning about the characters, a back story etc.

I can assure you there is no problem with me, I know what I'm watching, if you read my previous post you'd realise I said Abrams Star Trek 'could' have worked if it wasn't for Into Darkness, so mentioning 'both films' is irrelevant. Into Darkness offered us nothing new, I learnt nothing new. That is my point. Apart from Kirk 'dying' of radiation rather than Spock, it was just ooh big explosion and ohh more CGI.

You tell me where the new story is?
Yes, I can. Don't mistake using the same characters and similar situations as being "nothing new". Khan was used in a different way than in Space Seed or TWOK. Carol is used differently as well. Kirk isn't an aging officer who feels ready to be put out to pasture. Khan was play much more sympathetically than in the previous outings. So yes, the movie played differently than TWOK.

We're still learning about these characters too, only we have nearly fifty year of seeing them in their previous incarnations.

I don't care if you mentioned the previous film or not. My comment was directed at more than just you.
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Old September 3 2013, 02:52 AM   #343
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I doubt we'll ever see the old timeline onscreen again. When has a popular media franchise EVER gone back to a discarded continuity after rebooting itself?
Animated productions are no stranger to this. Take the Scooby-Doo franchise: it flip-flopped from the originals (and numerous spin-offs) to "kid" versions, then tv movies, another "kid" version, and now yet another series set in the basic, original style. Why? the original, developed concept works best. So, it has happened, and I believe TOS is far more popular/relevant to the culture than Scooby Doo, so a return to the prime universe--specifically TOS--is not such a wild idea.
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Old September 3 2013, 03:35 AM   #344
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
The "Prime Timeline" doesn't actually exist.

I think fans are making a distinction that exists nowhere except inside their own heads.

There is no a single cohesive overarching "prime" universe. Whether fans want to admit it or not, TMP was the first Trek reboot.
No official statement, so that's not even close to being true, same with TWOK. All press/interviews called TMP the "continuing" story of TOS, not anything along the lines of...

"a different take on..."

"not really in the same storyline as.."

..or anything else that would be 1979's version of "reboot" or "reimagining."
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Old September 3 2013, 03:51 AM   #345
Santa Kang
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
The "Prime Timeline" doesn't actually exist.

I think fans are making a distinction that exists nowhere except inside their own heads.

There is no a single cohesive overarching "prime" universe. Whether fans want to admit it or not, TMP was the first Trek reboot.
No official statement, so that's not even close to being true, same with TWOK. All press/interviews called TMP the "continuing" story of TOS, not anything along the lines of...

"a different take on..."

"not really in the same storyline as.."

..or anything else that would be 1979's version of "reboot" or "reimagining."
Doesn't Roddenberry's novelization dismiss TOS as dramatic presentations based on the adventures of the "real" Enterprise?

It was soft reboot. As was TWOK.
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