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Old September 2 2013, 04:35 AM   #61
RPJOB
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Re: Barely-legible graphics canon?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
When considering the TOS dedication plague, one should keep in mind that in TOS, the term "starship" was used to describe that specific class and its capabilities, and wasn't a generic term applied to all FTL vessels. It's possible that the term "Constitution-class" was retroactively applied in-continuity, when more classes came along that fit TOS's idea of a true "starship"...making the term "starship" descriptive of a general type of ship, like "aircraft carrier" or "battleship".
An interesting theory if not for the fact that it's based on a faulty premise.

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Old September 2 2013, 09:06 AM   #62
Robert Comsol
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Re: Barely-legible graphics canon?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
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Old September 2 2013, 02:12 PM   #63
The Old Mixer
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Re: Barely-legible graphics canon?

RPJOB wrote: View Post
An interesting theory if not for the fact that it's based on a faulty premise.
Well, TOS has all sorts of inconsistencies when it comes to terminology, especially first season. What stuck out in my mind more were the times that people would ooh and ahh over the fact that the Enterprise wasn't just any ol' ship, it was a STARSHIP.

Regardless of whether the term was unique to the specific model of ship that the TOS Enterprise was, it's still a working theory that in this case, "Starship class" was being used as a generic term, e.g. "aircraft carrier", "battleship", etc., as opposed to the name of that specific class, e.g. "Nimitz-class aircraft carrier".
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Old September 2 2013, 02:45 PM   #64
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Re: Barely-legible graphics canon?

^I think the idea in TOS was that "starship" was analogous to "capital ship" or "ship of the line" -- a large, powerful vessel rather than a small private craft.

And no, we can't take the "Starship Class" plaque too literally because they were making it up as they went. There's a lot of sloppy and contradictory terminology in the early episodes -- it took them a long time to decide whether the crew worked for Earth, UESPA, Space Central, or whatever, the Federation wasn't even established until roughly halfway through the first season, Vulcans were Vulcanians at first, dilithium was lithium, etc. It should be obvious that it's foolish to take every detail literally at that early stage. These are rough drafts of a universe in progress. If you're writing a novel, you can go back and rewrite your early ideas in favor of the better ones you had later; but in an ongoing series like a TV show or a comic book, you're stuck with your early ideas, so the best you can do is retcon them and ignore them and hope your audience will suspend disbelief and accept the revised version as the "true" one.
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Old September 2 2013, 02:47 PM   #65
Nerys Myk
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Re: Barely-legible graphics canon?

People put way too much stock in set decoration. It's there to give the set a certain weight not to be taken as hard fact. Even when its when it is a clear hard fact like Kirk's tombstone in WNMHGB, it can be brushed away on a creative whim or two little words: "I forgot". What ever the current "fact" is what's "true" even when it disagrees with the previous "fact".
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Old September 2 2013, 03:14 PM   #66
Robert Comsol
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Re: Barely-legible graphics canon?

Christopher wrote: View Post
I think the idea in TOS was that "starship" was analogous to "capital ship" or "ship of the line" -- a large, powerful vessel rather than a small private craft.

And no, we can't take the "Starship Class" plaque too literally because they were making it up as they went.
That's not correct. The original classification according to The Making of Star Trek was "Cruiser Class" which evolved into "Starship Class" which remained and stayed.

Instead "cruiser" apparently became a type according to this Jefferies sketch (funny, looks like "space cruiser" suggests there are still naval cruisers around, hence the differentiation).

Bob
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Old September 2 2013, 03:26 PM   #67
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Re: Barely-legible graphics canon?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
I think the idea in TOS was that "starship" was analogous to "capital ship" or "ship of the line" -- a large, powerful vessel rather than a small private craft.

And no, we can't take the "Starship Class" plaque too literally because they were making it up as they went.
That's not correct. The original classification according to The Making of Star Trek was "Cruiser Class" which evolved into "Starship Class" which remained and stayed.

Instead "cruiser" apparently became a type according to this Jefferies sketch (funny, looks like "space cruiser" suggests there are still naval cruisers around, hence the differentiation).

Bob
I seem to remember the term "Heavy Cruiser" used to describe the Enterprise. I don't know if I got this from the series, a movie or one of the novels.
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Old September 2 2013, 03:30 PM   #68
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Re: Barely-legible graphics canon?

"Heavy Cruiser" comes from Franz Joseph's Star Fleet Technical Manual, pages of which were used as display graphics in movies I - III. "Heavy Cruiser" is particularly visible in STIII, when Chekov reports the break-in to Spock's quarters.
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Old September 2 2013, 03:51 PM   #69
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Re: Barely-legible graphics canon?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
"Heavy Cruiser" is particularly visible in STIII, when Chekov reports the break-in to Spock's quarters.
Now, do we assume that "Heavy Cruiser" refers to the refit Enterprise in ST III (IIRC, the TMP blueprints mentioned that, too) or to the TOS Enterprise shown on the screen Display?

Suffice to say I'm inclined to take the Klingon definition in ST III ("Federation Battlecruiser") with grains of salt.

Bob
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Old September 2 2013, 03:59 PM   #70
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Re: Barely-legible graphics canon?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Suffice to say I'm inclined to take the Klingon definition in ST III ("Federation Battlecruiser") with grains of salt.

Bob
A Constitution-class starship can destroy the entire habitable surface of a planet. I don't think it is a stretch to classify it as a battle cruiser.
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Old September 2 2013, 06:55 PM   #71
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Re: Barely-legible graphics canon?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Remember Dr. Carol Marcus from ST II, the ethical "I will not let harm come to a microbe?".
In order to have a more dramatic and life-threatening setting the producers of ST III decided to have her have used "protomatter" for the Genesis Device. Oh wait, they shifted the blame to her son David, but as the supervisor of the Genesis Project, this made the Carol Marcus character look incompetent and stupid.
Off on a tangent, but...

I never interpreted that line from Carol ("there can't be so much as a microbe or the show's off") to indicate that she had an ethical objection to killing a microbe. I always took it to mean that for the Genesis experiment to mean something, the planet had to be absolutely, completely lifeless. If there were any form of life there, even as insignificant as a microbe, it could cast doubts on the ability of Genesis to truly produce "something from nothing."

YMMV.
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Old September 2 2013, 07:07 PM   #72
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Re: Barely-legible graphics canon?

^Probably a mix of both. Yes, she didn't want to contaminate the experiment with existing life, since then the origins of the resulting life would be unclear. But also, if they find a single microbe, that proves that the planet has a biosphere, that there must be other life somewhere on the planet even if they haven't found it yet. Her concern is not about destroying one microbe, but about destroying an entire alien ecosystem, one that might have the potential to develop higher forms of life billions of years in the future.
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Old September 2 2013, 07:46 PM   #73
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Re: Barely-legible graphics canon?

I sort of liked the term 'star cruiser' used by Anan 7 in TOS: A Taste of Armageddon
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Old September 2 2013, 11:15 PM   #74
jpv2000
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Re: Barely-legible graphics canon?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
"Heavy Cruiser" comes from Franz Joseph's Star Fleet Technical Manual, pages of which were used as display graphics in movies I - III. "Heavy Cruiser" is particularly visible in STIII, when Chekov reports the break-in to Spock's quarters.
Thanks. I had that FJ Tech Manual back in the day and most likely noticed that screen in ST III as well. Hence my confusion as to what source I had first seen that term.
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Old September 2 2013, 11:18 PM   #75
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Re: Barely-legible graphics canon?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Suffice to say I'm inclined to take the Klingon definition in ST III ("Federation Battlecruiser") with grains of salt.

Bob
A Constitution-class starship can destroy the entire habitable surface of a planet. I don't think it is a stretch to classify it as a battle cruiser.
Agreed. Gotta love those Klingons. They call a spade a spade. No political correctness with them.
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